American orange peel

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imported_Aurora40

New member
I was checking out some ZR-1 websites because they are such cool cars (I miss the 'vette sometimes). One of them had a FAQ that included a question about why American cars tended to have orange peel. The answer was that the EPA only allows so much solvent in the paint, so it means that the paint is very high in solids and doesn't always completely settle (as it is thicker) before it dries, which is what leaves the surface orange-peely. I found that interesting, but wondered if perhaps that is just one of those "wives-tales" or something. I mean, perhaps the paint is more durable that way, and the companies are tired of people who neglect their paint complaining that it doesn't last forever. I don't know. Anyone have any alternate theories, or confirmation of the EPA one?
 
Maybe :



www.pcimag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,1846,72913,00.html



In Europe the paints are usually waterbased (but still have maybe 3% solvent (glycols)). The spraying can have as much influence on orange peel as the formulation. Waterbased paints need to be sprayed at a constant temp and humidity. Orange peel is differences in surface tension which can be caused by uneven evaporation in the paint film or an inbalance in the formulation either by design or because of application parameters used. Orange peel can be used to cover up cheap steel, or ecoat/primer defects. Clearcoat can be one of the main culprits as the quest for increased performance changes the paint formulations. Additives are available to help with orange peel but can have other effects eg a Japanese company with factories in the US ended up with a yard full of cars that had to be sold cheap to rental companies due to the fact that a paint additive used caused blooming under abnormal weather conditions that happened to occur. Impossible to test for but caught before any were sold.



Steve
 
HellrotCi,



Those links refer mainly to refinish products(good explanation of orange peel though) which are designed very differently to OEM paints and are usually Xlinking 2K systems under low bake conditions as opposed to the OEM paints which are 1K baked at 160°C. Also robotic spray guns are very different from hand spray equipment. OEM paint will be around 15-20microns (colourcoat) whereas refinish paint systems will be applied at around 40microns. Extra film build usually helps with the flow as the paint stays wetter for longer and under low bake there is less chance of solvent boil. Legislation will hit car manufacturers first as well due to the volumes used whereas a repair/bodyshop will not be a big user.



sorry for being boring



Steve
 
Black regal please tell me the difference.

They are terms that have been used interchangeabley within the paint industry for years.

The main point, for clarity, is that the medium used to help with application for the resin, pigments etc is water or a solvent such as toluene. At the end of the day the paint on cars is a mixture of resins, pigments, fillers .



Steve
 
Yes that is what I said.

But what is the difference between water bourne and water based as per your first post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????

Have you read all the posts on this thread???????????????
 
The scope of Orange Peel goes beyond just American cars. I've been to my local benz, bimmer, gm and acura dealer, and every new car in the showroom has had orange peel.



It seems almost impossible to find a car with a crystal clear reflection it.
 
Black Regal

I am not getting excited. Your post that started this discussion was :

Just for the sake of clarity... it think you are referring to water-bourne paints, not water-based.
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which is basically is it a bonnet (UK) or a hood (US), both meaning the same thing. I thought by response to this said as much.



About your last post :



The pigments and resins in automotive paints are in fact oil based.
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since when was iron oxide, cobalt, titanium dioxide (pigments)etc derivatives of oil. Resins in modern paints are now synthetic (a tedious link with oil distillates maybe). The water based (bourne) systems are an acrylic resins emulsion and latex. Refinsh paints (solvent based / bourne) are usually acrylic / polyester which are then Xlinked with isocyanates to give a poly urethane topcoat.



Oil based paints refers to systems that use something like linseed oil and turps as a base. These resins have very little exterior durability be thankful that your car DOESN'T have this type of paint as all the polish in Autopia wouldn't help.



Then we can talk about cellulose paints, or paints made with long chain alkyds that use cobalt driers.



Bill North,

Try and look at cars that were not painted in the US esp. any direct Jap imports. The Toyota factory in Toyota City, Japan produced some excellent finishes



Steve
 
SP 325i said:
Bill North,

Try and look at cars that were not painted in the US esp. any direct Jap imports. The Toyota factory in Toyota City, Japan produced some excellent finishes



Steve
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I was under the assumption that, other than the M class benzes and Z series bimmers, the rest were painted in plants other than the USA, mostly Germany.
 
I just think it's hit-and-miss really. I went car shopping recently and saw some imports with bad orange peel and some American cars with very nice finishes. Some of these were GMs, and my friend's Olds has a very smooth finish too.
 
last week i saw a new clk that was really clean but it had orange peel. my japanese econobox also has it but my dad's maxima doesn't. maybe they'll find a better way to paint it or find a formula that doesn't harm the environment. wishful thinking.
 
Black Regal,



The hood / bonnet thing was just an example to show that to me waterbourne / waterbased is the same just a different way of saying the same thing. By the way I was in charge of paint development teams for a US paint company.



Bill North

I cannot remember which models are made where now but all I was trying to say (probably not too clearly) was maybe try and compare US painted models with eg Japanese painted models to see if you can see a difference. I know that Nissan, Honda, Mitsibushi (?) and Toyota all have plants in the US so it maybe interesting to compare the paint on a US model with a Jap model. I am 99% sure that the paint will be from different suppliers.

Anyway it does seem hit and miss as I know, in Europe anyway, different colours for the same model in the same car plant are not always from the same paint company.



Steve
 
So is it safe to say that it isn't necessarily because of the EPA that my car has some orange peel? Could there be any durability advantage to having orange peel, or is it just a thing that happens to all automakers? It seemed like cars from the 80's didn't have it as much (or maybe I just didn't notice). My '87 vette had very smooth paint, but perhaps it was the exception. I appreciate all the info, but it was pretty in-depth. I'm not saying I want a simple answer, but all that info didn't really explain why most cars today have orange peel, but rather just the things that can cause it. I mean, should I assume auto makers just have all those problems on occasion, or is there some uniformity to the orange peel? Thanks!
 
Aurora 40,



Sorry to have digressed a bit from your original thread so will try and give my opinion for your last question.



Most manufacturers, due to legislation, are / have been cutting down on solvent emmissions, some solvents have been banned altogether. Usually the nasty solvents are the ones that work best for flow, appearance etc So technology is always playing catchup. Now there are some very good WB paint technologies, powder coating is being looked at but in my experience the best formulations are usually the most expensive. Car companies want everything as cheap as poss.



So I suppose what I am saying is the older paint formulations using nastier solvents (in terms of VOC levels and H+S) were easier to apply with a mirror like finish. I suppose this supports your initial point. But I know that lots of car companies have a smoothness spec - see link in my first post - (ie no orange peel) in the approval stage.



Steve
 
One thing I have always wondered is whether color sanding will remove the majority of one's orange peel. My Jeep is afflicted with severe orange peel, and I have been toying with the idea of color sanding it. However, someone told me that orange peel isn't only in the top layer of the paint; instead, each layer has its own orange peel. This seems counterintuitive to me, but that's what someone said.



Does anyone know whether the orange peel is, in fact, in each of the layers? Or will color-sanding the top get rid of it?
 
Dude said:
One thing I have always wondered is whether color sanding will remove the majority of one's orange peel. My Jeep is afflicted with severe orange peel, and I have been toying with the idea of color sanding it. However, someone told me that orange peel isn't only in the top layer of the paint; instead, each layer has its own orange peel. This seems counterintuitive to me, but that's what someone said.



Does anyone know whether the orange peel is, in fact, in each of the layers? Or will color-sanding the top get rid of it?
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Sorry I forget who it is, but you can try searching for a member here who coloursanded his red Jeep Cherokee. I must say it looked super smooth after that! :up



(I think he put a Type-R sticker on the rear for laughs too :nono :p )



For what it's worth, I'll be lightly coloursanding one of my rear quarter panels in the spring - it's incongruously orange peeled compared to the rest of the car and it annoys me a lot.



EDIT: after a bit of searching, I dug some info up - it was done by a no longer registered user named dlw and here is some info and pics: http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8482&highlight=cherokee+orange+peel
 
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