Advice for newbie on how to remove scratches

R

Ross Tsiomenko

New member
Hi everyone, I own a silver 1998 Honda Accord LX (bought from my parents) which has never been cared for properly, and thus never had any detailing done. A couple of years ago my mom wanted to remove some sap, so she took some bathroom cleaner and a scrubbing sponge to most of the car... that obviously did not turn out well. Here is what it looks like now:


 


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There's every type of scratch imaginable on it, but I ran my fingernail over most of them and it looks like they are not deep and don't go past the clear coat. My question is, what the best combination of process/products to go about removing these? I have spent most of my Sunday reading on how to get started, but there is so much information that I decided to ask for help. It seems like I will need to take the car to a wash, get a random rotary like a Porter-Cable 7427XP, go over the car with compound first, then wash it again and use a polisher or a wax. However, I'm really not sure what to buy, and I'd like to keep it under $200. Any advice?
 
First off welcome to Autopia!!!


 


Some general thoughts---You might want to consider the Griots Garage Random Orbital rather than the PC as it is much more powerful and it has a lifetime warranty.   However, with the PC or Griots the $130 to $140 is just the beginning and it's going to be difficult to keep it under $200.  A Compound $20-30, a polish $20-30, about 4 compounding pads, 3-4 polishing pads and perhaps a couple of finishing pads -- all 5.5" ($30-40 for the pads) a 5" backing plate $15 and a LSP (last step product) sealant or wax $20-30-- not to mention numerous microfiber cloths.  You'll also need to clay the finish before polishing--figure about $15-20 for clay or a decon sponge.


 


One way to keep the cost down would be to purchase a Harbor Frieght DA polisher for about $50--more powerful than the PC and there are quite a few pros who have been using them with no seriously bad reports on reliability.   It's a great way to get started and later if you really enjoy this, you can dedicate it to a 3 or 4" pad setup and step up to the Griots for the larger pads.


 


Note: The PC, Griots and Harbor Freight are dual action random orbital machines, not rotaries.  DA's are very safe and it's difficult to harm your paint with any of the three, but a rotary takes some skill and experience so stay away from them.


 


For compounds and polish the HD products are easy to use and beginner friendly and you can get 16 oz bottles for about $20 each.   Buff & Shine pads are very durable and have a recessed Velcro that offers additional safety when polishing near protruding objects.   Then HD Poxy a hybrid sealant/wax has great looks.  Autoality.com carries the HD products and B&S pads and backing plate at good prices and reasonable shipping charges.  They also have a nice selection of quality MF towels.


 


Other alternatives would be Meguiars Ultimate Compound and Ultimate Polish that you can pick up at Walmart for about $10 each and Ultimate Liquid Wax (it's really a sealant) for about $20--these are also easy to use and beginner friendly.


 


This info should generate some additional questions so ask away.


 


Good luck!!!
 
Pwaug, thanks for your very helpful reply. I do have some questions:


 
<ul>[*]Does the process go compound -> polish -> wax or can it just be compound -> wax? I am not sure on the difference between compound and polish, from my understand polish is a finer "grit", and the point is to up the grit so you get a smoother finish than just using the compound. However, I'm not really sure. I've seen the flowchart too, and it recommends polish.
[*]When washing before and after claying, is a hand wash or automatic car wash preferable? If so, do I need additional products for washing and drying? I have a feeling I can't just use the garden hose and some dish detergent.
[*]The Griots Random Orbital comes with a 6" backing plate, and the pads they offer on their site are also 6". Is buying the same size backing plate + pads usually a bad decision - do the pads have to overhand the plate a little?
[*]What kind of pads are used for what? I do not understand the difference between foam/microfiber/cutting/polishing pads. I understand that I probably need to get rougher pads for compound and polish, and smoother for wax, but that's all I really get.
[/list]

From what I understand, these are the things I'd need to purchase to do this from scratch:


 
<ul>[*]random orbital - Harbor Freight 6in. DA polisher ($65)
[*]compound - Meguiar's Ultimate Compound ($10)
[*]polish - Meguiar's Ultimate Polish ($8)
[*]wax - HD Poxy ($15)
[*]compound pads, polish pads, wax pads - 3x of each, probably around $90
[*]microfiber cloths - set of 3 from Griots ($17)
[*]clay bar + lubricant - Meguiar's Smooth Surface Clay Kit ($19)
[*]hand wash tools?
[*]pad cleaners?
[/list]

This comes out to $225, + shipping and addons will probably push it to $300, which is the absolute limit for me. Not trying to be cheap, but I am also trying to buy some additional tools for inside detailing to get the interior done right, so it's important to stay within the budget.
 
corcovado said:
SEE MY COMMENTS IN FULL CAPS



Pwaug, thanks for your very helpful reply. I do have some questions:


 
<ul>[*]Does the process go compound -> polish -> wax or can it just be compound -> wax? I am not sure on the difference between compound and polish, from my understand polish is a finer "grit", and the point is to up the grit so you get a smoother finish than just using the compound. However, I'm not really sure. I've seen the flowchart too, and it recommends polish.  IF YOU USE A COMPOUND YOU WILL NEED TO FOLLOW UP WITH A POLISH BEFORE APPLYING A WAX OR SEALANT  WITH HONDA PAINT YOU MAY NEED TO DO A FINAL POLISH WITH A SOFT PAD (LIKE BLACK) SINCE HONDA PAINT IS GENERALLY SOFT.
[*]When washing before and after claying, is a hand wash or automatic car wash preferable? If so, do I need additional products for washing and drying? I have a feeling I can't just use the garden hose and some dish detergent. YES WASH BY HAND--GARDEN HOSE, BUCKET OR 2, QUALITY WASH MITT, MF DRYING TOWEL, CAR WASH SOAP--NO REAL NEED TO WASH AFTER CLAYING
[*]The Griots Random Orbital comes with a 6" backing plate, and the pads they offer on their site are also 6". Is buying the same size backing plate + pads usually a bad decision - do the pads have to overhand the plate a little?  5" BACKING PLATE FOR 5.5" PADS, 6" BP FOR 6.5" PADS--5.5" PADS ARE LESS EXPENSIVE, MORE EFFECTIVE, EASIER TO USE
[*]What kind of pads are used for what? I do not understand the difference between foam/microfiber/cutting/polishing pads. I understand that I probably need to get rougher pads for compound and polish, and smoother for wax, but that's all I really get.  EXAMPLE: B&S FOAM PADS- ORANGE PADS WITH COMPOUND, GREEN PADS WITH POLISH, RED TO APPLY LSP   MF PADS COME IN CUTTING (MORE AGGRESSIVE) AND FINISHING (LESS AGGRESSIVE) -- TYPICALLY THEY CORRECT PAINT FASTER--GENERALLY BETTER TO CUT/COMPOUND WITH MF AND FINISH WITH FOAM, BUT TO START YOU COULD STICK WITH FOAM TO KEEP IT SIMPLE
[/list]

From what I understand, these are the things I'd need to purchase to do this from scratch:


 
<ul>[*]random orbital - Harbor Freight 6in. DA polisher ($65) SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET FOR $50 WITH COUPON--YOU MUST REPLACE THE BACKING PLATE ON THIS UNIT AS THE 6" BP SUPPLIED IS NOT OF THE BEST QUALITY -- B&S BACKING PLATE IS $15
[*]compound - Meguiar's Ultimate Compound ($10)
[*]polish - Meguiar's Ultimate Polish ($8)
[*]wax - HD Poxy ($15)
[*]compound pads, polish pads, wax pads - 3x of each, probably around $90  10 PADS SHOULD BE OK TO START--ABOUT $60
[*]microfiber cloths - set of 3 from Griots ($17) YOU'LL NEED ALLOT MORE AND CAN GET QUALITY TOWELS THAT ARE LESS EXPENSIVE THAN GRIOTS
[*]clay bar + lubricant - Meguiar's Smooth Surface Clay Kit ($19)
[*]hand wash tools? SEE ARTICLES LISTED BELOW
[*]pad cleaners?
[/list]

This comes out to $225, + shipping and addons will probably push it to $300, which is the absolute limit for me. Not trying to be cheap, but I am also trying to buy some additional tools for inside detailing to get the interior done right, so it's important to stay within the budget. YOU CAN SAVE $$$ BY PURCHASING SOME ITEMS FROM NON DETAILING SOURCES--EXAMPLE BUCKETS FROM HD OR LOWES, DENTURE BRUSH FROM DOLLAR STORE TO CLEAN PADS DURING POLISHING, ETC ETC
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Here's a list of articles that should help answer many of your questions  http://www.detailedimage.com/Auto-Detailing-Guide/  Also, look up some videos on machine polishing on youtube to get a sense of how to use a machine.  Also, once you decide to move forward make sure you do a test spot to work out your tecnique, pads and compound/polish you'll need to get the results you want--only then proceed to do the entire car.


 


Don't rush into this as you have some serious correction to do on your paint.   Perhaps others will chime in with suggestions.  I've never polished Honda paint which is generally softer than other paints so perhaps you might be able to get away with using something like HD Adapt which would allow you to just use one product and perhaps one polishing step.  Others with more experience on Hondas will need to comment.
 
corcovado- Welcome to Autopia!


 


Don't underestimate the severity of that marring...it's not a matter of "going through the clearcoat" as you need to maintain a reasonable thickness (of the clearcoat) to provide UV protection.  IMO that paint is in "you can only improve that so much..."-type condition, so have realistic expectations.


 


You will also need some good lighting so budget for that too (the "usual answer" is a two-headed halogen worklight).


 


As pwaug noted, you'll need a *lot* more than three MF towels.  I'd get over a dozen (that's only four for each step- compound/polish/wax).


 


Washing is a more complicated subject that one might expect.  Get *good* shampoo, not just whatever's on sale cheap.  Better shampoos offer superior lubricity and encapsulation, resulting in less wash-induced marring.
 
Ok, thank you so much Pwaug and Accumulator, I think you guys have answered most of my questions, and I'm almost ready to get started. Last questions are: which MF towels would you recommend, and am I right in understanding that there is no washing between compounding/polishing/waxing? It seems that after compounding it would make sense to wash off the product, and same with other stages. I've read some people use a mixture of rubbing alcohol and water to rinse after polishing, before applying LSP - is this correct?


 


Also, Accumulator - 


 
Accumulator said:
Don't underestimate the severity of that marring...it's not a matter of "going through the clearcoat" as you need to maintain a reasonable thickness (of the clearcoat) to provide UV protection.  IMO that paint is in "you can only improve that so much..."-type condition, so have realistic expectations.
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How do you know when you're through the clear and into the actual paint, and how do you prevent yourself from going that far if you still see scratches that need buffing?


Edit: to add on to this, would you recommend a less aggressive compound than Meguiar's UC to lessen the chance of strike through/burn out?
 
You'll need a waffle weave for drying and as many 16 X16 buffing towels as you can swing--360 gsm or higher--the higher gsm are usually softer and with Honda paint you might be better off with 450 gsm.   Always wash MF alone with no fabric softener or bleach--wash new towels before using --wash in hot water--use a detergent with no sent etc--dry on medium or low.  You can use inexpensive light weight MFs for door jambs, wheels and engines. 


 


Also, don't forget a quality wash mitt--the Carpro lambswool at $20 is very good.


 


Usually if you stay within a system--ie all HD products, all Megs products etc --you don't have to do an IPA wipedown before your LSP.   That being said the Megs UC and UP have allot of oils that make me nervous even when applying a Megs LSP.   HD polishes wipe off well and you can move directly to Poxy.


 


Here's an idea that perhaps someone with Honda paint experience will comment on:   You could use HP Adapt (this is a medium compound that finishes really well) on orange pads for your agressive step then use HD Speed on a blue or black pad as a finishing polish.   Speed is an AIO in that it has HD Polish in it as well as some Poxy and it has some filling capability so it might mask (to some degree) any scratches you leave behind.  Then apply Poxy as your LSP which also seems to fill to some degree for me which might further mask any remaining marring.  As Accumulator mentioned you have some severe marring and you may want to settle for a less than perfect correction to save clear coat.
 
corcovado- Don't think in terms of "going through the clear"; you shouldn't take off *NEARLY* enough for that to be a concern (if you thin the clear too much the paint will fail due to UV exposure).  IF you see "dullness" or get color transfer on your pad (that's the basecoat being abraded) then you're through the clear, but you can kill the paintjob by merely taking off a fraction of that.


 


Without an ETG to measure the paint, it's kinda just guesswork and the best advice I can give is "just don't overdo it".  But that doesn't mean the UC is too aggressive, just that you shouldn't go over and over and over and over a given area with it in search of a perfect finish.  Get it "signficantly better" and leave it at that.  The car will still look much better; it's the overall presentation that really matters in the real world.
 
I once buffed out an Accord where the owner (sweet lady) tried scotch-brite pads to get bird poop off. A bit of overkill to be sure, but, with some M105 and an orange pad - plus patience, it all buffed out nicely.


 


Before you go buy anything, ask yourself if you have any desire to detail other friends or family members cars? If so, then you'll want to get decent stuff - they will pay for themselves after a few details. If not, I'd just hit the regional forums and see if somebody close could do it.
 
pwaug said:
Here's an idea that perhaps someone with Honda paint experience will comment on:   You could use HP Adapt (this is a medium compound that finishes really well) on orange pads for your agressive step then use HD Speed on a blue or black pad as a finishing polish.   Speed is an AIO in that it has HD Polish in it as well as some Poxy and it has some filling capability so it might mask (to some degree) any scratches you leave behind.  Then apply Poxy as your LSP which also seems to fill to some degree for me which might further mask any remaining marring.  As Accumulator mentioned you have some severe marring and you may want to settle for a less than perfect correction to save clear coat.
Click to expand...


 


Interesting, I will have to research which products to buy, seems like a lot of it is down to personal preference for people. HD Adapt seems like a combination of compound + polish that might be helpful.


 
Accumulator said:
corcovado- Don't think in terms of "going through the clear"; you shouldn't take off *NEARLY* enough for that to be a concern (if you thin the clear too much the paint will fail due to UV exposure).  IF you see "dullness" or get color transfer on your pad (that's the basecoat being abraded) then you're through the clear, but you can kill the paintjob by merely taking off a fraction of that.


 


Without an ETG to measure the paint, it's kinda just guesswork and the best advice I can give is "just don't overdo it".  But that doesn't mean the UC is too aggressive, just that you shouldn't go over and over and over and over a given area with it in search of a perfect finish.  Get it "signficantly better" and leave it at that.  The car will still look much better; it's the overall presentation that really matters in the real world.
Click to expand...


 


Gotcha, thanks.


 


 
JuneBug said:
I once buffed out an Accord where the owner (sweet lady) tried scotch-brite pads to get bird poop off. A bit of overkill to be sure, but, with some M105 and an orange pad - plus patience, it all buffed out nicely.


 


Before you go buy anything, ask yourself if you have any desire to detail other friends or family members cars? If so, then you'll want to get decent stuff - they will pay for themselves after a few details. If not, I'd just hit the regional forums and see if somebody close could do it.
Click to expand...


 


Actually I think my dear mother went at it with the same scotch-brite pads, except also using a toilet cleaner.. I'm interested in learning and doing this myself, depending on the results maybe friends/family will be interested as well :-) But mainly it's for me to learn and spend time with my car.
 
Well, seems you are still on the fence a bit. Here's the thing, it's not some hugely technical - have to be gifted - thing, it's polishing paint. I'd say most people with a little effort and common sense can do a detail as well as any one on the forum. Now, that I've awaken the sleeping giants, note - I said can do it, I didn't say how long it would take or if it would involve interiors, cause interiors can be a be-otch and you will hate yourself if you don't have the right (pricey ok) tools. What separates the Pro's from the Joe's is  -1. business, and all the things that go with running one, 2. Time! you can take a week to buff out your car, but a customer usually can't unless it's a show car that isn't driven much. 3. Experience - new guys (I am the most quilty of this) read about this polish and that compound and get confused, try too many, and then finally learn to stick with what works with their style - yes, your style, cause we're all a bit different and you'll find some polishes work better with your slow-fast-low speed-high-speed - whatever technique best The Pro's already know what they're going to use cause they have been there-done that so many times.


 


You can take care of that Honda, if it was me, I'd get a Griots PC, and 5" backing plate and HD Cut, HD Adapt and some pads, wax? after that polishing, any good wax would do.
 
JuneBug said:
Well, seems you are still on the fence a bit. Here's the thing, it's not some hugely technical - have to be gifted - thing, it's polishing paint. I'd say most people with a little effort and common sense can do a detail as well as any one on the forum. Now, that I've awaken the sleeping giants, note - I said can do it, I didn't say how long it would take or if it would involve interiors, cause interiors can be a be-otch and you will hate yourself if you don't have the right (pricey ok) tools. What separates the Pro's from the Joe's is  -1. business, and all the things that go with running one, 2. Time! you can take a week to buff out your car, but a customer usually can't unless it's a show car that isn't driven much. 3. Experience - new guys (I am the most quilty of this) read about this polish and that compound and get confused, try too many, and then finally learn to stick with what works with their style - yes, your style, cause we're all a bit different and you'll find some polishes work better with your slow-fast-low speed-high-speed - whatever technique best The Pro's already know what they're going to use cause they have been there-done that so many times.


 


You can take care of that Honda, if it was me, I'd get a Griots PC, and 5" backing plate and HD Cut, HD Adapt and some pads, wax? after that polishing, any good wax would do.
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Not really on the fence so much as not sure what to buy yet. There are so many things recommended as the "best" one and I don't have 10 hours to sit down and read all the reviews/opinions. When starting out it's hard not to want the "best" possible tools/materials, I know the detailing itself will likely be simple, just time consuming. I see a lot of people recommend UC/UP in different places as the best starter kit, you recommend HD Cut/HD Adapt, Pwaug recommends HD Adapt/HD Speed. A lot of people seem to be using Lake Country pads, Pwaug recommends Buff & Shine, if you go to the Autogeek forum they really push their own brands on you, etc. etc... I will probably be fine with getting any one of these, all of them will work, but I have a tendency to be a perfectionist when investing a lot of money into a new hobby (which is silly, since I doubt I will get everything right on the first try).
 
Here are links to two threads by Dellinger involving Honda's:


 


http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/133010-07-honda-accord-spot-correction-interior/


 


http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/132467-my-wifes-dd-02-honda-accord/


 


Perhaps you could send him a private message with a link to this thread asking for his comments and suggestions, which might help you make up your mind.


 


One of the great advantages of this forum is that it is an open forum---HD owns the site, but you can discuss any brand you like without fear of being slapped on the wrist or banned.   And, you'll get both positive and negative honest opinions.
 
Just remember, if you put 10 detailers in a room, ask them how to make "x" look show car good, you would get 10 different answers. IMHO - you can't go wrong buying a PCXP or one of the Griots, Megs, HF versions. It is the cheapest, easiest to use and has a long track record of service. Are there better machines? Depends on who you ask, there are many that love the Rupes, some that prefer the Flex, a few Makita & Cyclo users, and some that just do rotaries. Jump in, get your feet wet and start detailing, it won't take long before you figure it out. And Megs UC/UP and UW all found at autoparts stores/wallymart will work, and may be the best to get to start with.
 
Thanks again for all your advice guys, especially Pwaug, I will be sure to send that guy a PM! I think I've decided on a final combination:
HF DA polisher, B&S 5" backing plate, Meg's UC/UP (found some posts where UC looked very good on 6th gen Accord paint), HD Poxy for LSP, B&S 5.5" orange/green/red foam pads, assortment of MF towels, Meg's Clay Kit, some buckets, Meg's Gold Class shampoo, and the Carpro mitt for washing. All in all it should come to about $300.
 
My last question is, there's probably no easy way to get rid of these paint chips, right?
 
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From what I understand, doing it "properly" with a matching base paint + clear coat, etc. will still not give it that OEM look, so my options are to get some cheapo cover-up paint or just leave it be, since I drive on the highway a lot and it these things will probably keep appearing. 
 
corcovado- Those bumpercovers are to the point where they need to be taken off the car, repainted, and then reinstalled.  Those exhibit a lot more than just "highway damage" (my cars get a *LOT* of highway use, just get a few stonechips), so if you get 'em redone and then take care of them they should stay nice for a good long time. I mean, the way they look now, it appears they've come into contact with things other than wash mitts and MF towels ;)
 
Accumulator said:
corcovado- Those bumpercovers are to the point where they need to be taken off the car, repainted, and then reinstalled.  Those exhibit a lot more than just "highway damage" (my cars get a *LOT* of highway use, just get a few stonechips), so if you get 'em redone and then take care of them they should stay nice for a good long time. I mean, the way they look now, it appears they've come into contact with things other than wash mitts and MF towels ;)
Click to expand...


 


You're right, after watching a lot of "paint chip" tutorials, it would appear my parents probably scraped a few things with those covers.. any idea how much a repaint of both the front and back should cost if I try to find a reputable body shop?


 


Edit: never mind, found a lot of info on bumper covers in forums specific to my model. Thanks for the help guys, maybe when I finish with this I will post some before and after pics :-)
 
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