The concepts behind buffing/polishing

[transamfan]

First of all, I have never buffed a car. I have painted an old muscle car with base coat/ clear coat and now I am ready to cut and buff it. It will be a car that I take to car shows so I want to do a good job on it. Time, effort and money are not a real big concern here, I really want to do this right the first time. The car is black, with Nason 497 clear coat. I don't have a measurement on the thickness of the clear, but there is plenty to work with (4 coats).



My plan is...



Wet sand to 2000

Menzerna Powergloss with wool pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with orange Lake Country CCS pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with white Lake Country CCS pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with black Lake Country CCS pad on rotary



Menzerna 106FF with black Lake Country CCS pad on RO



Then to finish...



Clearkote Vanilla Moose Wax Hand Glaze

Clearkote Red Moose Machine Glaze

Pinnacle Souveran



Questions:



1) The whole idea of buffing is to smooth the surface of the clear coat by stepping down from the most agressive to the least agressive compound/pad combinations. So, when I use the wool and powergloss to remove the 2000 grit scratches, I just keep going with it until all of the 2000 grit scratches are gone, then move on to the next step?



2) Besides burning through, can spending too much time on one step (like wool and powergloss) before moving on have a bad effect on the final outcome? Or, can I just take my time on each step, making sure that I have removed all the previous steps imperfections, and then move on?



3) Is it possible to take too small of steps? Ya, more unneccissary work, but it won't hurt anything?



Thanks for the help. I have learned everything I know about this stuff from this very forum.

 

[Accumulator]

..My plan is...



Wet sand to 2000

Menzerna Powergloss with wool pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with orange Lake Country CCS pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with white Lake Country CCS pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with black Lake Country CCS pad on rotary



Menzerna 106FF with black Lake Country CCS pad on RO



Then to finish...



Clearkote Vanilla Moose Wax Hand Glaze

Clearkote Red Moose Machine Glaze

Pinnacle Souveran



Questions:



1) The whole idea of buffing is to smooth the surface of the clear coat by stepping down from the most agressive to the least agressive compound/pad combinations. So, when I use the wool and powergloss to remove the 2000 grit scratches, I just keep going with it until all of the 2000 grit scratches are gone, then move on to the next step?

I'd use the 2K to level the paint to your satisfaction and then use 4K to reduce the severity of the sanding scratches. I'd do it by machine (which can actually be milder than by hand) and I'd use Mirka stuff or the new 3M system.



Then use the PG to remove the 4K (or the 2K if you only do one sanding step) sanding marks (you might not even need to use a wool pad). Yeah, get rid of the sanding marks before you go milder.

2) Besides burning through, can spending too much time on one step (like wool and powergloss) before moving on have a bad effect on the final outcome? Or, can I just take my time on each step, making sure that I have removed all the previous steps imperfections, and then move on?

I'd do what's necessary to remove the previous step's artifacts but don't do more than that. Sand just enough to level the paint; compound to remove the sanding scratches; polish to remove the compounding haze; final polish to bring up the gloss. Four steps oughta leave things as good as they're gonna get when you start with wetsanding IMO.



At that point I don't think I'd use the VM. I might want to clean the paint with something, but you don't need the (very mild) abrasives in the VM and they just might mess up your finish.

3) Is it possible to take too small of steps? Ya, more unneccissary work, but it won't hurt anything?

Yeah, IMO it *is* possible. Some people who've checked their work with ETGs have found that doing fewer, but more aggressive, steps actually removed less clear than doing more milder steps (hey, it surprised me too). My good painter has told me the same thing.



IMO you're just not gonna need as many polishing steps as you think you will. My aforementioned painter uses Mirka 2K, then 4K, then Menzerna IP/wool, then FP (or in your case 85RD) with foam and then turns it over to me for the final polishing. At that point most people would say it's already perfect.



Oh, and Welcome to Autopia!

 

[transamfan]

Thanks for the reply Accumulator.

I'd do what's necessary to remove the previous step's artifacts but don't do more than that.

Since I have never buffed a car before...I am guessing that I will be able to tell when then compounding has removed the sanding scratches, the polish has removed the compounding haze, ect.? Or, is this something that you just kinda learn through experience?

Four steps oughta leave things as good as they're gonna get when you start with wetsanding IMO.

Does this mean that there is a better way to start things, like not wetsanding at all? I may have to wet sand reguardless due to a little orange peel.



I can go ahead with the Red Moose and the Souveran to give it a good deep finish? From what I have read, this is popular on black cars.





Thanks again.

 

[Legacy]

Thanks for the reply Accumulator.







Since I have never buffed a car before...I am guessing that I will be able to tell when then compounding has removed the sanding scratches, the polish has removed the compounding haze, ect.? Or, is this something that you just kinda learn through experience?









Does this mean that there is a better way to start things, like not wetsanding at all? I may have to wet sand reguardless due to a little orange peel.



I can go ahead with the Red Moose and the Souveran to give it a good deep finish? From what I have read, this is popular on black cars.





Thanks again.

You've never buffed a car before and you are going to use a rotary?? Good Luck!

 

[Accumulator]

You've never buffed a car before and you are going to use a rotary?? Good Luck!

Hmm..yeah...that *does* come to mind :nervous: But some people take to certain skills better than others. I hadn't used a rotary in ~20 years, and had *never* used one on b/c paint, but I got my new Makita out of the box and used it to do serious correction on my beloved S8 with no problems at all.



transamfan might do just fine if he thinks about/researches this stuff and approaches the job with the proper mindset. Studying the Meguiar's videos might be invaluable. I dunno...while becoming a true rotary-Meister takes a *lot* of experience, I don't think it's that hard to get (merely) satsifactory results with one. Yeah, there'll be holograms, but final polishing with the RO oughta take care of those.

Since I have never buffed a car before...I am guessing that I will be able to tell when then compounding has removed the sanding scratches, the polish has removed the compounding haze, ect.? Or, is this something that you just kinda learn through experience?

Yeah, you'll be able to see/gauge your progress. You do an area until the polish is *almost* dry/gone, buff off the residue, inspect, repeat.

Does this mean that there is a better way to start things, like not wetsanding at all? I may have to wet sand reguardless due to a little orange peel.

No, sorry..I wasn't clear. If you start with wetsanding it'll do most of the work. The compounding will just clear up the dulling effects of the wetsand. If the OP isn't bad I'd just skip the whole wetsand/compound/aggressive polish process and do *only* the final polishing. But I understand about OP and showcars.



The idea is to do as little to the paint, at each step, as possible. If you botch up, you'll be getting the paintgun back out



Be sure to inspect it under varying lighting conditions and also under natural sunlight (which will show holograms from the rotary work, if they're there...and chances are they will be).

I can go ahead with the Red Moose and the Souveran to give it a good deep finish? From what I have read, this is popular on black cars.

I've never used RM but others like it. Yeah, Souveran is very nice, especially on black. Note that some of us (myself included) believe you shouldn't wax fresh paint for at least 90days lest the wax interfere with the outgassing/curing.

 

[Bert]

First of all, I have never buffed a car. I have painted an old muscle car with base coat/ clear coat and now I am ready to cut and buff it. It will be a car that I take to car shows so I want to do a good job on it. Time, effort and money are not a real big concern here, I really want to do this right the first time. The car is black, with Nason 497 clear coat. I don't have a measurement on the thickness of the clear, but there is plenty to work with (4 coats).



My plan is...



Wet sand to 2000

Menzerna Powergloss with wool pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with orange Lake Country CCS pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with white Lake Country CCS pad on rotary

Menzerna 85RD3.01 with black Lake Country CCS pad on rotary



Menzerna 106FF with black Lake Country CCS pad on RO



Then to finish...



Clearkote Vanilla Moose Wax Hand Glaze

Clearkote Red Moose Machine Glaze

Pinnacle Souveran



Questions:



1) The whole idea of buffing is to smooth the surface of the clear coat by stepping down from the most agressive to the least agressive compound/pad combinations. So, when I use the wool and powergloss to remove the 2000 grit scratches, I just keep going with it until all of the 2000 grit scratches are gone, then move on to the next step?



2) Besides burning through, can spending too much time on one step (like wool and powergloss) before moving on have a bad effect on the final outcome? Or, can I just take my time on each step, making sure that I have removed all the previous steps imperfections, and then move on?



3) Is it possible to take too small of steps? Ya, more unneccissary work, but it won't hurt anything?



Thanks for the help. I have learned everything I know about this stuff from this very forum.

You may want to get a scrap panel from a body shop or junk yard to practice on before hitting your show car.

 

[transamfan]

Thanks for the advice guys. Although I have never buffed a car before, I am not completely new to this stuff. I learned to paint cars this same way. Just read a lot about it, asked some questions on the forums, and got to work. I am very confident that I will get it done well. Besides, I plan to do this a lot more than just this once, so I figure I need to learn to do it right from the beginning.



I already have a test panel ready to go. I have done some practice airbrushing on a 2x2 piece of sheet metal (practicing for when I airbrush the hood bird on my 79 T/A) and after I buff it I am going to put it on the wall in my office.



I know the rotary is more agressive and a little harder to use, but aside from the halogram and burn through possiblities, there's nothing else to watch out for? And, I planned on using the RO as a last step because I figured I would have some halograms. This will take care of them right?



I don't think that I will apply anything to the paint in terms of waxes or sealants for a while. I am a firm believer that the paint need time to get all of the solvents out.



Thanks again guys. If it comes out great it will be because I had some good teachers.

 

[Accumulator]

..I know the rotary is more agressive and a little harder to use, but aside from the halogram and burn through possiblities, there's nothing else to watch out for? And, I planned on using the RO as a last step because I figured I would have some halograms. This will take care of them right?

As long as you're careful, keep it moving, and use sensible speeds you won't burn the paint. Watch you don't catch a corner/trim/etc. though because things happen fast. And yeah, the RO should work fine for the last step. Take things slow, easy, and *pay attention every second* and all should go well.



Oh, and I'll be looking forward to pics of your T/A. I had a '77 and those late '70s models are probably my favorite F-bodies.

 

[cajunfirehawk]

By all means post some pics too...and of course...t/a's rule. :woot:

 

[Hey Moe!]

Yes, transamfan, I can't wait to see it, either. I had a '79, with not-too-common brown metalflake, and gold "snowflake" wheels.



Ahh, the younger, uncomplicated days!

 

[BigJimZ28]

for some reason I like seconds generation f-bodys also



good luck

 

[transamfan]

'I plan on taking things slow. I really don\'t think I can take things too slow, right? Keep the RPM\'s down and do a bit at a time is the plan.\r\n\r\nHey cajun, that\'s a good looking firehawk. My daily driver is a white 98 T/A. Painted a ram air hood and put on it first thing. Hey, Moe, I just refinished my snowflakes. Painted them black and polished up the aluminum. Thought about going original and painting them back gold but I decided to go completely custom instead. \r\n\r\nHere\'s a picture that I put together of the car right after the paint job. Took a picture of the car in a parking lot and then photoshopped the decals, wheels, background, and my woman in (she\'d kill me if she knew her picture was on the internet). This is kind of what I have planned for the car, I just didn\'t want to wait until the car was really finished to do the picture. I will do another when it\'s all finished. \r\n\r\n\r\n

'

 

[Accumulator]

transamfan- Thanks for putting that pic up!



Heh heh, all that talk about the snowflake wheels sure takes me back

 

[salty]

Looks like a nice project. I would also add to not sand any areas that the rotary can not get into to remove sanding marks. And be careful with the rotary on edges, lighten up pressure. Otherwise it sounds like you have everything in front of you.

 

[Accumulator]

..I would also add to not sand any areas that the rotary can not get into to remove sanding marks..

Or at least use a *GOOD* quality paper, not harsher than 2K grit. I've removed 2K sanding scratches from factory Audi clear *by hand*, so it oughta be doable (if not exactly quick or pleasant). But you gotta use a paper with truly uniform 2K or finer grit; cheap papers leave deeper "tracers" that sometims won't come out without the rotary.

 

[salty]

Good point Accumulator, I too have removed 2000 by hand, next time I would probably use 2000 then 2500.

 

[transamfan]

From doing body work and painting I have learned that using good paper is a must. I don't try to save money in this department. I will prabably go ahead and sand to at least 2500. I don't want to have to try and get aggressive with the compounds because I know I could mess something up. I am sure every guy that has ever burned through the paint thought to himself afterwards..."huh, that sure happened quick".



For the edges and body lines, can't I just tape them off? Should I use the tape while applying agressive compounds and then take the tape off when I get to the polishing? What's your advice in this area? I understand the advantages of taping these areas off, but what are the disadvantages?

 

[salty]

No problem with taping off edges for compounding, if you don't sand those areas. You will have to be the final judge if by doing so, is it noticeable.

 

[transamfan]

Thanks for the help guys. I think I have the information that I need to do a good job. I will be back to show you guys how I did.

 

[itb76]

I've done this job on my race car after I shot a panel with PPG SS. There was nothing I could do to remove the sanding scratches with a PC, so I bought a rotary. For this job I see nothing wrong with starting out with a rotary.

I'd use the 2K to level the paint to your satisfaction and then use 4K to reduce the severity of the sanding scratches. I'd do it by machine (which can actually be milder than by hand) and I'd use Mirka stuff or the new 3M system.

What machine are you wetsanding with?