Swissvax Crystal Rock

[dennn]

Maybe I am missing something here.

Many citizens of the interwebs often say that expensive waxes are associated with marketing and hype.

But I haven`t seen any off-the-wall advertisements or marketing hype for waxes such as Swissvax, E-zyme, Zymol Royale, etc, etc. I am not sure if a fancy looking webpages or internet banners constitute "marketing and hype". If fancy webpages and internet banners make expensive waxes fall into "marketing and hype", then I guess many products fall into the same "marketing and hype" category. Including $20 detailing Duffle Bags that I always see being advertised on other detailing forums.

Of course, I am not saying that expensive waxes are NOT subject to marketing and hype. I just haven`t seen any outrageous or off-the-wall marketing of these expensive waxes other than a couple of internet banners and webpages.

[Jack Kruer]

now I know what you guys are doing with the wax that you took in for the cash for wax contest.

Zoom wax-Crafted from a special blend of the finest waxes availible.

Chad, what an excellent idea.

jk

[Bluegrass Cat]

Maybe I am missing something here.

Many citizens of the interwebs often say that expensive waxes are associated with marketing and hype.

But I haven`t seen any off-the-wall advertisements or marketing hype for waxes such as Swissvax, E-zyme, Zymol Royale, etc, etc. I am not sure if a fancy looking webpages or internet banners constitute "marketing and hype". If fancy webpages and internet banners make expensive waxes fall into "marketing and hype", then I guess many products fall into the same "marketing and hype" category. Including $20 detailing Duffle Bags that I always see being advertised on other detailing forums.

Of course, I am not saying that expensive waxes are NOT subject to marketing and hype. I just haven`t seen any outrageous or off-the-wall marketing of these expensive waxes other than a couple of internet banners and webpages.

I would say most of the marketing and hype comes from Swissvax or Zymol sponsoring highly acclaimed detailers (Paul Dalton) or sponsoring auto events geared towards exotic cars. The Paul Dalton partnered with Swissvax to make Crystal Rock, I have to believe he was paid a decent sum to have his name attached to the product. That or for ever tub sold he gets as certain percentage of the price. Also, when I see information from very exotic car shows (especially in Europe) I will often see Swissvax or Zymol as a show sponsor. I am sure that is not cheap.

I realize all detailing brands sponsor events and maybe even people but a brand like Meguairs who sells thousands of tub/bottles of wax for every one tub Swissvax sells can spread that cost over more product and make it much cheaper per unit.

[Todd@RUPES]

Maybe I am missing something here.

Many citizens of the interwebs often say that expensive waxes are associated with marketing and hype.

But I haven`t seen any off-the-wall advertisements or marketing hype for waxes such as Swissvax, E-zyme, Zymol Royale, etc, etc. I am not sure if a fancy looking webpages or internet banners constitute "marketing and hype". If fancy webpages and internet banners make expensive waxes fall into "marketing and hype", then I guess many products fall into the same "marketing and hype" category. Including $20 detailing Duffle Bags that I always see being advertised on other detailing forums.

Of course, I am not saying that expensive waxes are NOT subject to marketing and hype. I just haven`t seen any outrageous or off-the-wall marketing of these expensive waxes other than a couple of internet banners and webpages.

First and foremost I think most of us will agree that these are all good performing waxes, and that the basis of performance has to be judged as such. They are all really really good.

I will give some broad examples of what I consider to be hype and dubious marketing.

Different color blend of carnauba: Since all carnauba is #1 yellow, this is obvious hype.

Making waxes for cars from different countries or cars from certain makers: For example waxes marketed for Ferraris. In 2005 Ferrari switched to PPG Cermaclear, which was originally used by Mercedes Benz. Should I use the German wax since it is the same paint used on German cars? Lets say the wax is specifically formulated to work on a certain paint system.. (Stretching it). Well what about previous to 2005, should I use a different wax? What about when Ferrari`s had Glasurit?

Advertising unrealistic numbers of carnauba or even advertising that this number is vitally important. Carnauba, by wet volume, cannot really exceed about 30-35 percent of the total product or the product would become unworkable. At 60 percent it is literally a hockey puck.

So in the text we have waxes that do not exist, in amounts that are impossible, designed for cars that are painted on different continents...

What about waxes designed for special show cars. Does the wax bend light to make the lines of the car look better, or was it designed for the color of the paint. What does designed for a specific car even mean?

To me that is hype.

Another one I cannot stand is that you have to apply to the wax by hand to somehow activate these magical chemicals (that are all natural in and in no science books) or melt the wax with your body heat...

If the wax melts at 98.6 degrees then please do not expect it to last more then 1 day in the sunlight. Hand applied waxes are created by the final blending technique, separating the carnauba from the solvent. When you rub the wax in your hand, the wax mixes... That`s it, the rest is hype.

I would rather pay a huge amount for a wax that had a description that reads like this, "We wanted to make a really good wax so we used really high quality carnauba like everybody else, then added silicone, oils, and solvents to make it very shiny. We blended the carnauba with other waxes to increase the refraction (depth), application, and durability, and then we added polymers to increase the delivery of the wax to the surface. We used only the highest quality ingredients available and made sure that nobody could product a higher quality wax, at any price point."

However this wouldn`t sell as well (or for as much) as "We own our own hydroponic carnauba grow house deep in the Brazilian Rain Forrest. Every week a shaman blesses the young trees, which are feed with the highest quality cow manure in the world. The trees get veil on Sundays. After carefully trimming the high grade carnauba from the fawns, it is dounced in holy water, packed in a gold urn, and flown around the Bermuda triangle three times in each direction to ensure magnetic uniformity.

The wax is then shipped to Germany, where physicist examine each flake for complete accuracy, reflection, density and shape. The wax is then exploded into an ultra fine powder in a particle accelerator in the Swiss Alps.

Imported fruits are squeezed for their fresh juice, and natural occurring solvents such as acetone are used to gently blend the carnauba on the lunar eclipse. In the end you have 78.54 percent carnauba by Elephant volume, with an exotic blend of monkey brain, fruit juice (made in a Juicer), and Pharaoh DNA.

To apply chisel 1 oz from the carnauba block and place in the stove at 200 degrees. Remove when melted (use filter air and a brick stove). Warning apply only on days with a full moon to take full effect of gravitational pull. Apply in a sweeping motion from left to right (NOT RIGHT TO LEFT) and allow to set. Determine setting time by multiplying due point by temperature, and dividing by .4532, then add 2. Add 3 if it is late in the day.

To remove, use the fine carbide chisel enclosed in the 3k crystal container. Chisel in a back and forth motion to be gentle to the paint. Make a final wipe with a microfiber cloth (followed like an Origami Cup) in the opposite direction. 3-4 hours later the fruit juices will `surafacizationable` and require a gentle re-wipe. You should were a white polo when doing this for maximal gloss."

Perhaps it is the limited knowledge I have, but when I read the fancy websites I find little else but hype.

[imported_broker99]

While I am hesitant to say that is all marketing and hype (obviously the wax itself is very good, although I don`t know any that are very bad) I would say that some of claims made in the marketing do not add up in my novice head.

I am a firm believer in prep work and I believe that the closer the paint is brought to theoretical perfection the less overall impact the wax (or sealant) will have on the overall look of the paint. This is because (like water running over scratched paint) waxes and sealants tend to fill in microscopic marring in the paint, creating a smoother, more reflective top surface. If the paint has been made smooth by precise mechanical abrasion then this benefit is not needed.

On a black, swirled out hood, I would put Meguiar`s NXT 2.0 against a lot of these super priced waxes. Why? Because NXT 2.0 will fill nicely and great a noticeably smoother looking paint devoid of swirls and scratches. In direct light the NXT side will appear more even, darker, and swirl free. Obviously in low light and at angles their might be a discernible difference in the `depth` of the reflection, but even the difference is going to be small.

The problem I have with super waxes isn`t the performance or even the value (as mentioned these are completely in the eye of the beholder) but the hyperbole and dubious marketing that is often associated with selling these products.

Special carnaubas? No such thing. All carnauba wax used in the automotive field is #1 yellow, which is the highest. By micro refining or bleaching it can be made white (Midnight Sun uses micro-refined carnauba flake which we call Ivory, and the performance benefit is that it is easy to get a consistent blend each and every time it is hand poured). There is no such thing as a natural white wax, it doesn`t exist.

The amount of carnauba wax, at least quoted, is in many cases misleading. By true volume about 30-35% is max, although application at this level becomes difficult. Even then the amount of carnauba is such a small indicator of performance (often the other ingredients used such as solvents, oils, or secondary waxes are far more important then amount of carnauba) that it really shouldn`t be quoted.

I have used a couple of the boutique waxes and thought that most where very nice, although none came close to blowing my socks off the way that properly finished paint does. As mentioned I did a very small (and very unscientific) test with PS21 100%, Zymol Vintage, and Zymol Royale on the hood of an owners Ferrari 348. I couldn`t tell much difference between the 3, but Royale was terrible to use. For the price increase $50 vs $2000 vs $8000 there should have been a significant increase in looks (IMO) and not one that requires a specially trained eye to see. In then end most people at the party (including the owner of Royale) thought that P21s looked better. It doesn`t prove anything other then on that particular day, with those particulate `judges`, the $7500 difference in quality was not detectable.

The specialty trained eye... When I have read that somebody used an expensive wax and couldn`t tell the difference the common retort is that they don`t have a trained eye for it. Perhaps, like enjoying fine an expensive wines, you have to develop a taste for it to appreciate it. But given the thickness of the coating of wax (sub micron) any difference is guaranteed to be very small.

This is my personal opinion that follows so let me take off the PAC shirt.

Human perception is a funny thing and impossible to define. Why? Because perception, as they say, is reality. If we want to go really far off the deep end then we can conclude that `one universal` reality simply doesn`t exist. Our realities are formed by the inputs our specialty organs detect, and are transfered through electrical impulses into membranes that chemically transfer the energy into the readable input. This happens almost instantly and there is a lot of room for error. Previous stimuli can change the way we see this new input, like viewing through a colored lens. It is a game of Chinese Telephone.

What is attractive to some isn`t attractive to others, and this is reality. This is why some people like sealants, and some like waxes... It isn`t about right and wrong it is about individual interpretation and the resulting individual realities.

This is why eye witness accounts are refutable in court, why you see things that aren`t there at night, and why the piece of art you finding stunning and beautiful is ugly and disturbing to your friend.

One powerful input in society is cost and the perception of value. Keep in mind that many people feel by spending more they are receiving a better quality product. Because this perception is reality, they are receiving a better product, regardless of provable differences in performance and quality.

Car waxes are pretty simple regardless of how much you pay for them. They all have some type of solvent, similar quality carnauba wax, and auxiliary oils, emsufliers, etc. Most car waxes utilize several types of raw wax blended together. This isn`t a price thing, as carnauba is very cheap, and the blending of the wax together adds cost, but a performance thing. Despite the romantic marketing of carnauba, it has many short comings. Blending carnauba with small amounts of different wax usually results in the synergistic effect that improves the performance and look of the wax. It isn`t done to save money (it doesn`t`) it is done to increase performance. Some boutique waxes, such as Midnight Sun have a small amount of synthetic polymers in the wax. Again this doesn`t save money but adds to the cost of production. But it is done because there is increases the performance of the wax over using just regular old carnauba.

So the actual product and quality difference between boutique waxes (which use the highest quality products) is, on paper, very small. There is only so much that can be done.

This doesn`t mean that these super duper expensive waxes don`t look better to some peoples eyes (perhaps based on price point alone) and that the visual difference isn`t very real (it is, perception creates reality). Using a wax (instead of a sealant) is a romantic notion to begin with, and the reality of using an expensive wax is very appealing. It is no different then wearing Lucky Jeans instead of Express instead of Target brand. Heck, in my experience, the Lucky Jeans didn`t last very long, the Express jeans bled color, and my cheap Target jeans (used for detailing/house hold projects) are still going strong. But I feel better wearing more expensive jeans. Doesn`t make sense, but it is my reality.

Another point to consider is that many people lump wax performance together with price point.

0-20 dollars; 21-60 dollars, 60-90 dollars, 91-150 dollars, 151-300 dollars, 300 on up...

Obviously the brackets are different and everybody has a different category, but you can see it on most forums. Again the actual cost of the product is probably quite similar in 60 dollar and up range because at this price point the highest quality ingredients are easily obtainable.

But we see often, that most people will perceive at 100 dollar wax > 50 dollar wax. And a 200 wax > 100 wax and a 500 dollar wax > 200 dollar wax, and so on and so on. As price goes up we are going up this imagery rung-ed ladder of depth and glow and whatever. By the time we get to near ten figure amount, the different between $8000 and $50 should be huge. Only it isn`t. Even the most adamant supporters and lovers of super waxes will admit that the difference is small, a nuance, and that you may need a trained eye to see it. So either the performance rungs are extremely small or a matter of perception.

In the end, I do feel that waxes have different looks (although very small and that you do need somewhat of a trained eye), but I do NOT personally feel that price, in any way, shape, or form has any effect on the quality of wax above a certain price point. If you like the look of a super expensive wax, I am sure you can find a very similar or identical looking wax (probably using similar ingredients and made in a very similar wax, devoid of hyperbole) for much less money.

Keep in mind that I write this wearing over priced, non-durable, jeans...

This forum truly lives up to its name. Thanks Todd.

Chad, what an excellent idea.

jk

Does this mean the next time I stop by will you be wearing a lab coat?

[Legacy99]

Very funny, but mainly true th0001:hurray:

[dennn]

Todd Helmes... you`re revealing too much my friend. Nobody but the inner circles are allowed such knowledge!!! FDA and animal rights organizations will forbid these waxes be imported! And you know, they have internet bots searching on google 24hrs a day for this kind of information!

[supercharged]

First and foremost I think most of us will agree that these are all good performing waxes, and that the basis of performance has to be judged as such. They are all really really good.

I will give some broad examples of what I consider to be hype and dubious marketing.

Different color blend of carnauba: Since all carnauba is #1 yellow, this is obvious hype.

Making waxes for cars from different countries or cars from certain makers: For example waxes marketed for Ferraris. In 2005 Ferrari switched to PPG Cermaclear, which was originally used by Mercedes Benz. Should I use the German wax since it is the same paint used on German cars? Lets say the wax is specifically formulated to work on a certain paint system.. (Stretching it). Well what about previous to 2005, should I use a different wax? What about when Ferrari`s had Glasurit?

Advertising unrealistic numbers of carnauba or even advertising that this number is vitally important. Carnauba, by wet volume, cannot really exceed about 30-35 percent of the total product or the product would become unworkable. At 60 percent it is literally a hockey puck.

So in the text we have waxes that do not exist, in amounts that are impossible, designed for cars that are painted on different continents...

What about waxes designed for special show cars. Does the wax bend light to make the lines of the car look better, or was it designed for the color of the paint. What does designed for a specific car even mean?

To me that is hype.

Another one I cannot stand is that you have to apply to the wax by hand to somehow activate these magical chemicals (that are all natural in and in no science books) or melt the wax with your body heat...

If the wax melts at 98.6 degrees then please do not expect it to last more then 1 day in the sunlight. Hand applied waxes are created by the final blending technique, separating the carnauba from the solvent. When you rub the wax in your hand, the wax mixes... That`s it, the rest is hype.

I would rather pay a huge amount for a wax that had a description that reads like this, "We wanted to make a really good wax so we used really high quality carnauba like everybody else, then added silicone, oils, and solvents to make it very shiny. We blended the carnauba with other waxes to increase the refraction (depth), application, and durability, and then we added polymers to increase the delivery of the wax to the surface. We used only the highest quality ingredients available and made sure that nobody could product a higher quality wax, at any price point."

However this wouldn`t sell as well (or for as much) as "We own our own hydroponic carnauba grow house deep in the Brazilian Rain Forrest. Every week a shaman blesses the young trees, which are feed with the highest quality cow manure in the world. The trees get veil on Sundays. After carefully trimming the high grade carnauba from the fawns, it is dounced in holy water, packed in a gold urn, and flown around the Bermuda triangle three times in each direction to ensure magnetic uniformity.

The wax is then shipped to Germany, where physicist examine each flake for complete accuracy, reflection, density and shape. The wax is then exploded into an ultra fine powder in a particle accelerator in the Swiss Alps.

Imported fruits are squeezed for their fresh juice, and natural occurring solvents such as acetone are used to gently blend the carnauba on the lunar eclipse. In the end you have 78.54 percent carnauba by Elephant volume, with an exotic blend of monkey brain, fruit juice (made in a Juicer), and Pharaoh DNA.

To apply chisel 1 oz from the carnauba block and place in the stove at 200 degrees. Remove when melted (use filter air and a brick stove). Warning apply only on days with a full moon to take full effect of gravitational pull. Apply in a sweeping motion from left to right (NOT RIGHT TO LEFT) and allow to set. Determine setting time by multiplying due point by temperature, and dividing by .4532, then add 2. Add 3 if it is late in the day.

To remove, use the fine carbide chisel enclosed in the 3k crystal container. Chisel in a back and forth motion to be gentle to the paint. Make a final wipe with a microfiber cloth (followed like an Origami Cup) in the opposite direction. 3-4 hours later the fruit juices will `surafacizationable` and require a gentle re-wipe. You should were a white polo when doing this for maximal gloss."

Perhaps it is the limited knowledge I have, but when I read the fancy websites I find little else but hype.

Todd, I never laughed so hard in my life...I had to run to a bathroom, and then comeback and read it...every week a shaman blesses young trees...dude...this is just too funny, I think it`s one of the funniest jokes ever...or holy water and golden urn...f*** dude, but I laughed so hard, my stomach still hurts...now the bermuda triangle just takes the cake...how do you come up with this stuff? :biggrin:
Anyway, back to the topic - to each their own, if you can afford it - buy it...But personally I wouldn`t expect it to be 20 times better then Midnight Sun. But there is a saying you get what you pay for... Rich people want the best (and they judge it by the price) wax available and are willing to pay for it...I been at Roseville Galeria Mall, and they have this boutique store - Louis Vitton, women bags are $1000-3500, mens shoes are $700 a pair...I would only pay so much if it is made out of special alligator skin...maybe...
Personally I maybe would buy Zymol Vintage for it`s looks and durability, and for the sake of free lifetime refills... Although Rubbish Boys Original Edition costs around $75 and second closest in terms of looks to Vintage...But it`s all in the prep work...

[BimmerSean]

Great....I guess I wasted my hard-earned money but addiction is a terrible thing...In case if anyone is wondering, the small j8 oz. jar is Vintage personally made by Chuck Bennett for me, the founder of Zymol...

Sean,,,,,,

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd, I never laughed so hard in my life...I had to run to a bathroom, and then comeback and read it...every week a shaman blesses young trees...dude...this is just too funny, I think it`s one of the funniest jokes ever...or holy water and golden urn...f*** dude, but I laughed so hard, my stomach still hurts...now the bermuda triangle just takes the cake...how do you come up with this stuff? :biggrin:
Anyway, back to the topic - to each their own, if you can afford it - buy it...But personally I wouldn`t expect it to be 20 times better then Midnight Sun. But there is a saying you get what you pay for... Rich people want the best (and they judge it by the price) wax available and are willing to pay for it...I been at Roseville Galeria Mall, and they have this boutique store - Louis Vitton, women bags are $1000-3500, mens shoes are $700 a pair...I would only pay so much if it is made out of special alligator skin...maybe...
Personally I maybe would buy Zymol Vintage for it`s looks and durability, and for the sake of free lifetime refills... Although Rubbish Boys Original Edition costs around $75 and second closest in terms of looks to Vintage...But it`s all in the prep work...

^ I think by blood sugar was low... That is what happens.

I have used and briefly owned Vintage (pronounced VEEN TAAA GGEEE) with a French accent for proper effect (in English it is vintage like an old pair of socks) and think it is a very very nice wax. I have personaly that it is more difficult to apply then some other waxes and tends to streak in the humdity (often requiring a rebuff) and has typical durablity.

But it isn`t the glass case, the story, the name nor the price that makes it a great wax, it is a nice combination of wax, oil, and solvent. Some may prefer the look of Vintage to the look of Midnight Sun (or any price wax vs. any other priced wax) but it to assume that it is because of the quality of ingredient would be, imo, wrong.

[Todd@RUPES]

Great....I guess I wasted my hard-earned money but addiction is a terrible thing...In case if anyone is wondering, the small j8 oz. jar is Vintage personally made by Chuck Bennett for me, the founder of Zymol...

Sean,,,,,,

Sean, I don`t want to suggest you wasted your money at all. In fact, quite the opposite. Apply it, remove it, and judge it on your own. You might find you love it and think that I am completely wrong, and that is cool as well!!!

If we all believed and saw the same things this world would be borning. Your opinion is as valuable and as accurate as anybody elses on this forum!

[Junebug]

My Dad was a great man, lived through the Depression of the 30`s, was a Marine at 32 years old and fought in WWII, finally retired for good when he was in his mid eighties. He was also frugal an a real hoot to take to the mall. One time we walked in a store and he saw a Ralph Lauren shirt for $65 and he said - let`s go, I`m seen enough! I got to say, the older I get, the more I feel like he did. I weigh the value, and the bang for the buck a product has. Like Todd and the jeans example, I`ll look for comfort, price and duribility over designer lable.

My advice to anyone starting detailing - buy from PAC, good products, great value.

[supercharged]

^ I think by blood sugar was low... That is what happens.

I have used and briefly owned Vintage (pronounced VEEN TAAA GGEEE) with a French accent for proper effect (in English it is vintage like an old pair of socks) and think it is a very very nice wax. I have personaly that it is more difficult to apply then some other waxes and tends to streak in the humdity (often requiring a rebuff) and has typical durablity.

But it isn`t the glass case, the story, the name nor the price that makes it a great wax, it is a nice combination of wax, oil, and solvent. Some may prefer the look of Vintage to the look of Midnight Sun (or any price wax vs. any other priced wax) but it to assume that it is because of the quality of ingredient would be, imo, wrong.

maybe...but it was still sooooooo funny!!!

[imported_TLMitchell]

For that price I would expect Paul Dalton himself to show up at my door and apply it.

Would that include a snazzy, H-D musical video of the process? The 63-step wash? Maybe some dancing girls to keep you entertained while he works?

You`ve gotta hand it to the guy, he`s created a niche and getting flown all over the world to spiff the exotics of those that equate price with results. Can`t blame him for cashing in if he can.

Me? I`ll take a $12 bottle of 845 any day.

TL

[imported_TLMitchell]

How about this??

http://www.autoanything.com/car-care...x?kc=ffproduct

Man, and I thought I blew a lot of money on detailing stuff.

Yeah, but it`s got honeydew extract. That stuff ain`t cheap... it`s tough trying to get a honeydew to stand still while you extract it! :biggrin:

TL