Coatings vs. Standard LSP`S discussion

[Thomas Dekany]

I gotta say after reading all of this with an open mind, I think I`ll stick with sealants and wax!

It would be your loss. Using a sealant? You will run into the same issue except people don`t talk about it much - you have to have a clean surface in order for the sealant to stick. Look at zaino - why do you think it has so many steps and last longer than other sealants? Wax maybe a bit more forgiving but even then you should clean the paint properly before applying it to get the most out of it.

[boxingfan30]

Sorry I did not see your original issue. What product did you have a problem with specifically, and what was the issue?

I have used a lot of products and none were able to shed water spots caused by my neighbors sprinkler. I had to install a new head at my expense and then I polished off the damage and I have been good ever since. I also invested in a CR spotless dual cartage large unit so I can wash in the sun. It was a drag to wash before dawn and after dark all the time. Our water is hard here and its just something I have had to work around. Failure is not an option

Both oc and cquk spotted badly, the uk was so bad I had to polish out the spots, the OC just didn`t look very good to me, and it was also not beading anymore and things were sticking pretty bad.

[mbpress01]

It would be your loss. Using a sealant? You will run into the same issue except people don`t talk about it much - you have to have a clean surface in order for the sealant to stick. Look at zaino - why do you think it has so many steps and last longer than other sealants? Wax maybe a bit more forgiving but even then you should clean the paint properly before applying it to get the most out of it.

Is it your opinion then that the non-professional weekend warrior who does a very good job polishing and uses the quality tools and polishes (flex, menzerna, hd and optimum) should still attempt coatings. I applied coatings twice. Both times car came out good and the sheeting beading was the best I have ever seen. The paint - Lexus black - look good but didn`t shine as much as I hoped and I could tell there wasn`t a swirl in the paint. The main issue I see is all the risk in improper application - with zaino or any sealant anyone can do it. You just have to make sure there is no polishing oils left from the polishing work. Plus if you mess up or the environment doesn`t agree (let`s say a storm comes unexpectantly) a dawn wash with citrus red and the paint is ready for another application. With the coating I would assume you have re polish it all off and start over. Hence leave the coatings to the professional. Unlike you being an opticoat professional - you have the time experience and facilities to make them work. I would assume the majority of us don`t.

[boxingfan30]

I do not understand why you wouldn`t list your steps? Yes, the paint "just has to be clean" but that may not mean that it is actually clean. If one uses Optimum polishes, you have a lot less to worry about, but if you were to use lets say 3D polishes (used to be my favorites) - I will give you an example what can happen.

At least happened to me. I coated a good friend`s car. My steps were: wash/clay/hd adapt/hd polish/IPA. OC was gone in less than a year - when my steps include IPA after EACH polishing step? OC is fine.

FYI, when I worked for 3D, Tunch was working on a compound and we did a test against all the heavy hitters (heaviest compounds) - there was one compound, that looked near perfect when cleaned with 100$ IPA while all the others looked like $*&T. (on fresh Jet Black paint. Took 5 wipes to remove all the oils.

So this is one example where one CAN make an "an honest mistake" and it isn`t because of one`s ability. Look, you maybe the Michael Jordan of detailers, but I would still suggest that you have an open mind - none of us know EVERYTHING, and don`t take it so personally when someone is trying to help you. It is good to learn. When you get to THAT point of "I know everything" - you really don`t.

Hope this clears things up.



I may be the ignorant one, but it could also be that I have a little more experience with coatings and I was just trying to help you get better. But who knows, maybe you should be teaching me.

For one , I am on a slow, laggy iPhone 4, and it`s extremely annoying.
Washed with dawn, Clayed with another dawn mix. M105 for orange peel removal, blue pad with sf4500. 50/50 IPA with 1 drop of dawn, each panel was left wet for 5 minutes, a second IPA wipe down w/o dawn no dwell time, pressed with the towel to insure squeaky clean results. Car left approximately 1 hour to insure a totally dry finish. OC pad prep and then followed the directions to the letter on application.

[Thomas Dekany]

Is it your opinion then that the non-professional weekend warrior who does a very good job polishing and uses the quality tools and polishes (flex, menzerna, hd and optimum) should still attempt coatings. I applied coatings twice. Both times car came out good and the sheeting beading was the best I have ever seen. The paint - Lexus black - look good but didn`t shine as much as I hoped and I could tell there wasn`t a swirl in the paint. The main issue I see is all the risk in improper application - with zaino or any sealant anyone can do it. You just have to make sure there is no polishing oils left from the polishing work. Plus if you mess up or the environment doesn`t agree (let`s say a storm comes unexpectantly) a dawn wash with citrus red and the paint is ready for another application. With the coating I would assume you have re polish it all off and start over. Hence leave the coatings to the professional. Unlike you being an opticoat professional - you have the time experience and facilities to make them work. I would assume the majority of us don`t.

Of course! You do not need to be a pro to use consumer coatings. It isn`t that much harder, but you do need to be at your best. For durability, the paint needs to be free of oils.

[Ronkh]

Is it your opinion then that the non-professional weekend warrior who does a very good job polishing and uses the quality tools and polishes (flex, menzerna, hd and optimum) should still attempt coatings. I applied coatings twice. Both times car came out good and the sheeting beading was the best I have ever seen. The paint - Lexus black - look good but didn`t shine as much as I hoped and I could tell there wasn`t a swirl in the paint. The main issue I see is all the risk in improper application - with zaino or any sealant anyone can do it. You just have to make sure there is no polishing oils left from the polishing work. Plus if you mess up or the environment doesn`t agree (let`s say a storm comes unexpectantly) a dawn wash with citrus red and the paint is ready for another application. With the coating I would assume you have re polish it all off and start over. Hence leave the coatings to the professional. Unlike you being an opticoat professional - you have the time experience and facilities to make them work. I would assume the majority of us don`t.

I did it.

Stick in in garage for 12-24 hrs after

[Thomas Dekany]

For one , I am on a slow, laggy iPhone 4, and it`s extremely annoying.
Washed with dawn, Clayed with another dawn mix. M105 for orange peel removal, blue pad with sf4500. 50/50 IPA with 1 drop of dawn, each panel was left wet for 5 minutes, a second IPA wipe down w/o dawn no dwell time, pressed with the towel to insure squeaky clean results. Car left approximately 1 hour to insure a totally dry finish. OC pad prep and then followed the directions to the letter on application.

If SF4500 is a menzerna product, I am not sure that what you did would remove all oils, even if the paint felt squeaky clean. That is just my opinion, and I maybe wrong, but as I said earlier, when we were testing some compounds, the german one resisted 100% IPA for 4 rounds before the 5th wipe won. I stopped using menzerna many years ago, but if not coating, if one wants to just have a "swirl free" finish, they are good until those oils dissipate on their own after a few months in which case those swirls will be back.

[MiVor]

It would be your loss. Using a sealant? You will run into the same issue except people don`t talk about it much - you have to have a clean surface in order for the sealant to stick. Look at zaino - why do you think it has so many steps and last longer than other sealants? Wax maybe a bit more forgiving but even then you should clean the paint properly before applying it to get the most out of it.

I dunno, I`ve been using polymer sealants for many years and never had a problem anything like what`s been described here with coatings. One day I may dip a toe in the coating pool....we`ll see.

[boxingfan30]

If SF4500 is a menzerna product, I am not sure that what you did would remove all oils, even if the paint felt squeaky clean. That is just my opinion, and I maybe wrong, but as I said earlier, when we were testing some compounds, the german one resisted 100% IPA for 4 rounds before the 5th wipe won. I stopped using menzerna many years ago, but if not coating, if one wants to just have a "swirl free" finish, they are good until those oils dissipate on their own after a few months in which case those swirls will be back.

it is a menzerna product yes. This process has worked for me every other time, cquk didn`t fail, it just spotted terribly, 22ple held while I had the car for about 5 months before selling it, I have also done about 10-15 other cars without issue the same way.

[Thomas Dekany]

it is a menzerna product yes. This process has worked for me every other time, cquk didn`t fail, it just spotted terribly, 22ple held while I had the car for about 5 months before selling it, I have also done about 10-15 other cars without issue the same way.

Well oc 2.0 as well as OCP are clear coats and not sealants so thats maybe why 22ple had no issues.

[Thomas Dekany]

I dunno, I`ve been using polymer sealants for many years and never had a problem anything like what`s been described here with coatings. One day I may dip a toe in the coating pool....we`ll see.

Off the top of my head, I see 2 issues interfering with durability. Oily finish or removing too much as you level. With a regular sealant the issue is also durability which would originate from improper bonding. I can tell you that cleaning the paint will always improve longevity sealant or coating it doesn`t matter. How many times do you see members asking for lsp recommendation because their last purchase did last anywhere close to the claim the manufacturer made? Ever wonder why? We always assume that it is the product, but I`d say it is more than not us.

[chet31]

Tried OC, liked it, but I favor regular sealants. For one thing, with the OC, I felt the need to get the finish absolutely perfect, since I was applying a "permanent" coating. The application of OC was easy enough (with proper lighting), but the prep work was a killer. With a regular sealant, you can get the finish "90% perfect", knowing you can attack it again in a few months, or next week, since it`s easy to reapply. Secondly, you will get mars and microswirls in the OC, from sap, road dust, etc. The OC may last forever, but gets nicked up over time. If I bought a new car, I think I would hit the hard-to-buff areas (bumpers, mirrors, side skirts) with a permanent coating, use regular sealant on the easy access areas. I get why people like permanent coatings, it just doesn`t work for me in all situations.

[MiVor]

Off the top of my head, I see 2 issues interfering with durability. Oily finish or removing too much as you level. With a regular sealant the issue is also durability which would originate from improper bonding. I can tell you that cleaning the paint will always improve longevity sealant or coating it doesn`t matter. How many times do you see members asking for lsp recommendation because their last purchase did last anywhere close to the claim the manufacturer made? Ever wonder why? We always assume that it is the product, but I`d say it is more than not us.

I don`t believe I ever saw a durability/longevity issue with sealants I`ve used. Then again, in true `Autopian form`, I probably sealed again long before the previous application failed. Since I currently tend to use an Aquawax topper after nearly every wash over my Duragloss sealant, I believe it lasts a very long time.

Footnote: I`ve never used Zaino. My experience is mostly with Klasse, Meguires, and Duragloss.

[Junebug]

I think sometimes it may be the paint. I did a Toyota Tundra (black) that looked like a smeary mess with Zaino, but BFWD did fine. The thing was, I just did a wash, IPA and LSP both times so there shouldn`t be any polish oils in the equation. And yes, followed Zaino directions to the letter.
Sometimes you just can`t figure it. I personally find Menz Power Lock lasts fine, I use Prima wax as you dry every other wash too. Both work good, fairly cheap, and extremely easy to use. Just my 2 cents.

[boxingfan30]

I think sometimes it may be the paint. I did a Toyota Tundra (black) that looked like a smeary mess with Zaino, but BFWD did fine. The thing was, I just did a wash, IPA and LSP both times so there shouldn`t be any polish oils in the equation. And yes, followed Zaino directions to the letter.
Sometimes you just can`t figure it. I personally find Menz Power Lock lasts fine, I use Prima wax as you dry every other wash too. Both work good, fairly cheap, and extremely easy to use. Just my 2 cents.

PL is a great sealant