Tie Browning

**TortoiseAWD** · 09-09-2001, 02:51 PM

<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

Originally posted by Ron Ketcham [/i]
What is this SG? Is it a wax, a liquid polymer sealant, a polish, don`t know what it is or what it is made of.

[/b]</blockquote>Klasse Sealant Glaze. I have no idea what it`s made of, either, but it sure makes some forum members` cars awfully shiny . . .

**rstype** · 09-09-2001, 03:00 PM

Klasse SG is a liquid polymer sealant. It`s description on CMA`s site is: Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze is a highly concentrated acrylic formula glaze for new cars and oxidation-free surfaces...creates an elastic, non-chip, shrink-proof, heat and scratch resistant -protective seal..."[/i]

**Ron Ketcham** · 09-09-2001, 04:29 PM

Had no idea of what is was by the SG.

Forget the acrylic part, that is just old German wording from the 70`s when nobody referred to polymer sealants as polymers. They felt that "acrylic" sounded more space age and people would relate it to plexiglas and the hard, clear look of it.

Yeah, needs to have cure time.

It is a polymer.

:bounce

**soontorn_chawal** · 09-09-2001, 09:05 PM

Does Klasse cure and/or dry? Is Klasse a monomer or a polymer? These are questions that have been asked numerous times.

Bkman4 stated that polymers are essentially plastic; I agree 100% with this statement. Polymers are created through polymerization reactions with associated cure times. As I stated in a post about a month ago, I contacted a number of companies and discussed the monomer versus polymer issue. The general consensus was that Klasse was most likely a polymer dissolved in a solvent. They stated that once applied to the car, the solvent would evaporate leaving the polymer behind. They further stated that since a polymerization reaction is not occurring a cure time would not be involved.

I further thought about injection molding of plastics. The material that the injection molder uses has already been polymerized and is received in pellet form, whether it is PBS, SAN, PC, etc. Using a combination of pressure and temperature the plastic is melted and injected into the mold. The plastic cools in the mold, the mold opens and the plastic part is ejected. A cure time does not factor into this process since a polymerization reaction is not occurring. The plastic was simply changed from a solid to a liquid and back to the solid form.

Another indicative process is joining two plastic pieces together by utilizing a solvent. Two parts are positioned together, a solvent (not adhesive) is applied and once the solvent has evaporated (dried) the process is complete. The solvent liquefies the mating surfaces of the two parts. Once the solvent evaporates the plastic solidifies and you end up with two parts mated as one. This is very similar to the explanation I received regarding Klasse being a polymer dissolved in a solvent; in simplistic terms the polymer had been changed from a solid to a liquid.

As stated before this is hypothetical since I really have no idea what Klasse is composed of. Perhaps there is a polymerization reaction occurring with a resultant cure time. Maybe someday we will all have the answers. Until then we can only experiment until we get the results we are individually happy with. For some this might mean waiting a week before applying that second coat of SG whereas others may apply immediately. Perhaps someone will discover that alternating Z2 and SG gives the best result (I have not tried this btw, but has anyone else?).

**HRC** · 09-09-2001, 10:16 PM

The question that was just asked about SG being a mononmer or polymoer is tough...I want to do some more research to answer that in detail, but I would think SG is a polymer, but even if not Monomers still undergo polymerization and there for need time to cure (same as polymers). Now I might be mistaken but I think all polymers are monomers. As monomers are defined as any material or substance that can undergo polymerization. This is confusing and I`m not sure on how correct it is...but I can assure you I`m doing more research as we speak.

WHAT IS SG?
I have been waiting for this question to come up...and let me tell you, it is not as simple as it seams. And to top it all off, it seems like the folks at Klasse are as confused as we are...this is what is says on this site: All-In-One is not a wax, silicone or polymer[/b] but an acrylic formula. It really is different.

Now here is the definition of polomers: Any of numerous natural and synthetic compounds of usually high molecular weight consisting of up to millions of repeated linked units, each a relatively light and simple molecule.

Here is the definition of plastic: Any of various organic compounds produced by polymerization, capable of being molded, extruded, cast into various shapes and films, or drawn into filaments used as textile fibers.

Acrylic itself is not usefully defined, but acrylic resin is...so: A glassy thermoplastic made by polymerizing acrylic or methacrylic acid or a derivative of either and used for cast and molded parts or as coating and adhesives.

Well, confused yet? I am...But if we break it down it is not that hard to figure out. It seems that Klasse is an acrylic formula, I`ll agree with their description on that. However if u look at the def. of polymers, you`ll see that all acrylics are polyomers. So Klasse is wrong when they say it isn`t a polymer. Now obviously acrylics are also plastic. What does this tell us? I don`t really know if it tells us anything we don`t already know...Klasse is an acrylic (probably considered a sealant)...and all acrylics are polymers...and all polymers are plastic. So...Klasse is essentially all three, but is this useful? I don`t know...I hope the guys at Klasse can update their description...Because if they don`t understand, How can we?!?

See ya and Happy Detailing

P.S. Detailking, what do u think of all this?

**Ron Ketcham** · 09-09-2001, 10:44 PM

Email me at ketch@autoint.com with your fax number and I will fax you what we have, several pages.

Most of the terms used are marketing terms, as I pointed out, and your research to this point is on the money.(I won`t take the time to go and post all of it, but you seem to be good at it so will let you)

Another way of describing the sealant coating are they are polymer/copolymers with amnio functional resins.

This has been the industry standard of definition for automotive paint sealants for at least 15 years that I have dealt with them in manufacturering and marketing.

It will end up being as the "silicone" issue.

Just try and explain the difference of a silicone vs a siloxane or a polydimethalsiloxane from a polyamniosiloxane. And get those who do not work with them daily to understand. Pretty deep chemistry, not all will be able to put it to work for them.

Then we can move onto the organic waxes vs the polyethelene waxes and what makes one better than the other.

You got more patience than I.

**HRC** · 09-09-2001, 10:54 PM

I want to give it some thought and research, but HOPEFULLY I can have something useful posted in a day or two...

And patience isn`t it, curiousity drives one to learn!

**Ron Ketcham** · 09-09-2001, 11:09 PM

I will fax not only that, but the patent for clay, not that it means much as a patent, but would let you explain the functionality of clay.

Got it laying in my car seat, was going to put some of it up, but just don`t relish the flames that go with it.

:bounce

**HRC** · 09-09-2001, 11:19 PM

I`ll be waiting for it tomorrow...if u can get it to me by 3 est then i`ll recieve it that day. I tell you what though...your last request will be challangeing to say the least...What my preliminary research shows that the differences are hard to explain and I`m not sure of the relavance, but perservere I will and I`ll keep looking into it...but if u have any docs. on that subject you can fax them to me as well...thanks.

**mx5** · 09-10-2001, 08:04 AM

Who knew waxing your vehicle required a doctorate in chemical engineering?

**HRC** · 09-10-2001, 09:43 AM

This might sound bad, but I haven`t even finished college yet. I am in a family business, and my father has done tremendous amounts of research on polymers. Since we work with them every day I have had to learn my share...I have been into it for about 2 years, he has been doing it for 30. When I ask him questions he talks way above my head. I`ve tried to keep it simple, but if u r unsure about somthing, keep the ?`s coming. But it`s weird, everyone is paying $$$ for this product and it works pretty damn well, but no one know exactly how to apply it...the answers are coming...I guess that patience thing is useful now, huh Ron...

**soontorn_chawal** · 09-10-2001, 01:37 PM

bkman4, your definititon of a polymer consisting of up to millions of repeated linked units is correct. The individual units you mentioned are in fact the monomers. Polymers are created through the polymerization of monomers with other monomers and/or polymers. MMA (methyl methacrylate) for example is a monomer, most acrylic products begin with this monomer. Acrylics are made by free radical or redox polymerization. Acrylics are readily polymerized and copolymerized by bulk, suspension, emulsion and solution processes. PMMA, ABS and SAN are just a few of the resultant polymers. The creation of these polymers through polymerization requires a cure time. But as I noted earlier, changing a polymer from a liquid to solid does not require a cure time; you still end up with the same polymer.

I originally thought that perhaps SG was a monomer (MMA) that once applied to the car was somehow polymerized into an acrylic polymer (PMMA). I contacted representatives from companies specializing in acrylic monomers and polymers and they said that a catalyst would be required for the polymerization to occur and they highly doubted this occurred with SG.

**mx5** · 09-10-2001, 01:41 PM

I though this was a detailing forum and not a chemisty class.

**Ron Ketcham** · 09-10-2001, 02:21 PM

Guess it will make some on the forum go for their doctorate.

:bounce

**HRC** · 09-10-2001, 02:40 PM

PMMA is the plastic I work with, now I dont` understand it`s properties as well as some, but I know enough for my purpouses...that is an interesting point...I`m not sure that PMMA could be dissolved in such a fashion, but if so then it would already be cured and would just need drying time. If this all is true then there would still need to be a drying (curing) time to let all of the solvent evaporate before a second layer could be applied. I am going to hit the books and bounce this off of my dad...we`ll see...thanks to all for your help.

The one thing that I`m ...not sure[/b] you`re correct on waxman is what you said about a solid to a liquid. When I cure PMMA it starts out as a solid and is (dissolved) mixed with a monomer, and then heated under pressure. ...When we start to cure PMMA it is a semi-viscous liquid. Extreme heat cycles and tons of pressure are applied for long periods of time. Now if left sit, the liquid will start and exothermic reaction and cure itself...now when it does this the cure is bad, cloudy and weak. So to dissolve PMMA sounds like a dicey proposistion at best, and to get it to be a usefull sealant after a solvent evaporates would sound even more improbable. Now if there was no solvent it would still be solid, and if there was a solvent that could do it, then the mix wouldn`t really be PMMA. Ahhhh this is hurting my head...more work...