T-dawg Detailed: Range Rover

[Steve @ Guru]

Saw this on another board...not sure if this guy knows what he`s talking about or not, but I suspect some of his comments are a bit off-base...

He`s the guy who talked about `paint loading capabilities` and wax...

Here`s his post:

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Comments on a couple of postings:
1. Does anyone have a strong recommendation for wax for a new car with clear coat...for maximum wax durability and minimum abrasiveness.

2. If a chamois removes old wax, wouldn’t you have to wax much more frequently if you use a chamois?

3. Does a synthetic chamois have the same cleaning and wax stripping qualities as a natural chamois (I use a 3M chamois)?

Just about any wax is clear coat safe. For minimum abrasiveness, stay away from "cleaner wax", "polish" and "glaze" type products. For maximum durability, a little "space age polymer" goes a long way, meaning silicone additives along with Carnauba wax. For the best durability, go with a synthetic curing type sealant, not a wax. But if you go with a synthetic, be warned that they are finicky to apply in terms of temperature, surface preparation, curing time, humidity, etc. My personal preference is a liquid wax. I like Meguiars, Mothers, KIT, Pinnacle, Zymol, and the Turtle.

If the chamois removes the wax? .... wait a minute, how long do you think wax lasts? Unless you are driving in paradise, it is pretty much gone after about a month. And if you wash it at all, you`ve removed any residual wax along with the dirt. Especially if you use a dish washing detergent (I`ll rant a bit about dish washing detergents in a separate post). The chamois is just getting the surface a bit smoother and much dryer.

The synthetic chamois` do a pretty dang good job. You should see some of the micro-fiber based ones under a microscope! There is tons of pore volume away from the surface, and they do not stiffen up or shrink when they dry.

Speaking of chamois getting stiff when they dry, try applying a little hair conditioner after rinsing it thoroughly. Work the conditioner through, and rinse the heck out of it. When it drys, you will have replaced some of the missing oils that the chamois used to have, and it will smell pretty nice too.
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Comments appreciated.

[ISLANDSBEST]

Actually, not too far off base and many of his comments are true. Re a real chamois, I assume that he is assuming it is going to be used on a waxed car, otherwise, it`s not a good idea to put on oil product on a sealant protected car. I believe that he should have advised retiring the natural chamois . . . too much drag on the paint, unless you use it just to blot, and there are better products available. Try a blower and Canning Vale, Bloomingdal Platinum, Charisma Select or a plush MF.

[Lemonxxs]

I do not find K or Z finicky to apply ecspecially when I have done the prep work correctly which is the most important thing before applying any paint wax or sealant.



What brought up DAWN?



Synthetic chamois are better IMO.



I would not use a natural Chamois anyway but conditioner?? That seems a bit strange. If I remember correctly, which dont happen often, when you wet them they soften up? PLease correct me someone if I am wrong!

[Steve @ Guru]

His thoughts on Dawn:

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Dishwashing detergents are designed as "hard surface cleaners". There are literally hundreds of anionic surfactants to choose from when creating a washing product. The ingredients in a dishwashing detergent were tailored to remove assorted gunk from ceramic and metal surfaces. Not painted surfaces. They are too harsh and will promote the creation of microfissures in the paint surface, eventually leading to oxidizing the paint. But dishwashing detergent would be great for washing a DeLorean.

If you are looking for household products to take to the driveway to help clean up your ride..... grab some baby shampoo. About a capful into 2 gallons of warm water, take it from there.
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And regarding loading the paint with wax:

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The amount of wax you can apply is dictated by the paint`s loading capacity. Let me explain.

Each painted surface has a maximum loading capacity which is the surface`s ability to hold a quantity of wax. The loading capacity varies based upon the roughness of the surface (one factor). Unless you are a bigger miser than me, you will surely exceed that loading capacity with your first application of wax following a washing. Everything that you buff off the paint is wax which is in excess of the surface`s loading capacity. The only advantage to applying a second coat of wax is that you might miss a spot on the first application, and you`ll probably not miss that spot twice.
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[ISLANDSBEST]

In general, he is much more knowing than the average guy. I believe the wax loading piece is correct, though some believe you CAN layer wax (not a lot of coats, maybe just two) if you wait long enough. The ability to layer at coat of anything is, generally, a function of how much a coat will set. For example, try "layering" motor oil on something. You would have to wait months to years first coat to dry out and set before you could get a second layer on -- and, even then, the volitile components of the fresh oil would tend to loosen the top of the first (old) coat. On the other hand, you can layer catalyzed epoxy all day long. It sets up HARD. So, how hard does wax set up in a day or two, let alone an hour? If it does not set up hard, what happens when you apply a second "coat?" Think about it and I think you will get the answer.

[Lemonxxs]

My thoughts since I am still a bit hung over it may be in FLONIESE but bear with me for a bit.



Paint has a surface roughness.



Wax will adhere to this roughness and fill it in and create a smoother surface when buffed out.



The wax layer will still have roughness due to the underlying paint and the roughness from the buffing medium (MF or Towel)



Wax may or may not adhere to this first layer of wax. It may just increase the initial layer thickness or actualy be another layer.



The wax composition has a lot to do on layer thickness and layering ability.



There is some limit to how thick the wax layer(s) can be. This would be due to the adhesion and other physical and chemical properties of the wax.



I feel sythetic sealants can be layered up to some point as well. Otherwise those who have 100 layers plus would have some measurable amount say about a 1/32" or so of sealant build up.



Dawn is a harsh cleaner and should only be used once in a while on paint finishes. The other gobbly gook he wrote about DAWN makes my head hurt more so I am stopping here...

[Steve @ Guru]

I agree that he seems pretty knowledgable but after first read of his replies I wondered if there wasn`t a little shenaniganism taking place.



After additional reads it looks like he is generally in the know. I don`t agree with the conditioner on the chamois thing, but otherwise seems ok. My apologies for the quick trigger.

[Don2000g]

His suggestion of using Baby Shampoo is also not off base. It is a safe choice for a car wash. If you don`t have any car wash available than the Baby Shampoo suggestion is fine. Laters

[YoSteve]

1 : a small goatlike antelope (Rupicapra rupicapra) of mountainous regions from southern Europe to the Caucasus

2 also cham·my or sham·my /`sha-mE/ : a soft pliant leather prepared from the skin of the chamois or from sheepskin

3 : a cotton fabric made in imitation of chamois leather (A piece of such leather, or a cotton fabric made to resemble it, used as a polishing cloth or in shirts)



Microfiber is not a Chamois

[boywonder]

Actually, all you have to do is wet a chamois (synthetic or natural) to get the chamois back to its pliant state.

[ISLANDSBEST]

Don`s comment on the Baby Shampoo is, of course, correct.



The reason Baby Shampoo works for babies is that it is pretty neutral PH wise (not real alkaline or acid). It therefore is minimally irritating to a baby`s eyes -- and tender skin. (imagine Dawn washing a baby, heck, it strips the oils out of tougher, adult skin!)



A highly alkaline detergent, like Dawn, cuts grease and waxes. That`s why we use them when we do. BUT, if you have already prep`ed a car`s surface and carnuba waxed it, you usually don`t want to undo your work and remove the wax. Also, if you have already prep`ed the paint, even if you don`t use carnuba wax, highly alkaline products are pretty harsh and probably not a good idea for regular use.



So, as Don said, a Baby Shampoo, being pretty neutral, is OK if you don`t have a good car shampoo at hand.

[Don2000g]

Everyone, I nominate Darbh as a possible future moderator of this great forum. Hehe! Just a suggestion.

[andrew43]

As an FYI, the pH of tears is approximately 7.4 (slightly alkaline, but barely). The pH of MOST baby shampoos is still somewhat acidic, usually in the 5.5 to 7.0 range. Very few shampoos get to pH 7.4.

Source: Ansel HC, Popovich NG, Allen LV. <span class=`bbc_underline`>Pharmaceutical Dosage Forms and Drug Delivery Systems. 6th Edition, 1995.

PS: I used to extemporaneoulsy compound these products regularly. The reason most shampoos are slightly acidic is because that is closer to the "natural" pH of skin and hair (4.5 to 5.5). Some boutique shampoos get up to pH 10.

Maybe I should try and make some test car shampoo

[t-dawg]

Hello guys,

Been slammed with work recently, and have not had time to post any writeups in the last few months, so this is the first of the year. Client was a referral and had contacted me previously about getting his Range Rover done for his wife. The vehicle had been taken through the automatic car wash and had its share of swirls, scratches, and scuffs. We decided to do a full interior/exterior detail on it, with a double stage paintwork correction. I`ll let the pictures do the talking :giggle:

Notice the scratches inflicted from the car wash before:




Great deal of scratches common around the door handles:




Scuffs everywhere!








Long 15" scratch on front door:




Lots of swirls and light scratching:












Driver side rear door before:


Driver side rear door after:


Major swirling on rear bumper:




Eight parallel scratches, wonder where those came from?




Swirling on the tail lights:




50/50:


Rear door polished, front door untouched:


Finally the flakes are fully visible after final refining:


Engine bay:




Probably the best looking interior I have worked on in any SUV:


Outdoor shots:








Thanks for looking!

[Street Dreams]

Very nice work, big undertaking but clearly well worth the effort!