Rupes 21 -vs- Rupes 21 Mark II

[ShawnF350]

I have the 15 and 21.
What I`m not understanding is when the pad stalls , are we losing oscillation and/or just the rotation?
It looks to me like just rotation stops.
With a free floating spindle how does a more powerful motor in the Mark 2 keep the pad rotating? Dont both the new and old machines oscillate at the same RPM?

[Bunky]

Larry is now part of the marketing effort by Rupes more so than any other product I have seen him discuss.

[ShawnF350]

I have the 15 and 21.
What I`m not understanding is when the pad stalls , are we losing oscillation and/or just the rotation?
It looks to me like just rotation stops.
With a free floating spindle how does a more powerful motor in the Mark 2 keep the pad rotating? Dont both the new and old machines oscillate at the same RPM?

It would also be nice if Rupes was able to offer an upgrade for a reasonable price to convert a Mark 1 to a Mark 2. If it uses the same outer shell.

Will they consider selling the front piece with the newly added bumper as an accessory for the Mach 1 models?

I`m just thinking back when they had those Kirby and Electrolux vacuums. So many upgrades in the 70s.

[Todd@RUPES]

I have the 15 and 21.
What I`m not understanding is when the pad stalls , are we losing oscillation and/or just the rotation?
It looks to me like just rotation stops.
With a free floating spindle how does a more powerful motor in the Mark 2 keep the pad rotating? Dont both the new and old machines oscillate at the same RPM?

Shawn you are touching on a subject that many people do not understand, kudos.

When the pad stalls you are losing rotation, but in some cases you can loose oscillation (bogging). It really depends on why the pad is stalling in the first place.

This is fairly complex question to answer but I will do my best given that I am not an engineer.

There are multiple factors that "drive" the pad to rotate. One of the most important is the speed (and distance) of the oscillation. This creates the inertia that spins the pad (in simplest terms - its actually far more involved). By operating at a higher OPM, the force that spins the pad is increased.

However, even the OPM is subjected to load. If you hold the pad completely flat and press down as a hard as you can, then the OPM can bog. So now the pad`s rotation is slowed by two things - the increased friction of loading the pad as well as the fact that the tool is no longer generating the same force that spins the pad.

With a more powerful motor (torque), the tool is more resistant to loosing OPMs, and thus the pad will resist stalling more (the force creating the spin remains higher). With a higher RPM motor that resists loosing OPM under load, you have another factor that resists bogging and thus keeps the pad spinning better.

The Mark II spins at a faster rate than the Mark I (4700 RPM/OPM vs. 4200 RPM/OPM) max. This is true - not advertised - RPM. However, this is a small part in the rotation, it is the ability the Mark II to spin faster under load that creates the faster pad spin. If we had a tool that had 20k RPM, but dropped to 3K with the slightest load, the pad rotation would suffer considerably.

One thing that really impressed people at SEMA was how they couldn`t really stall the pad, even at speed 3. This isn`t so much of a factor of the RPM, as it is the machines ability to maintain the RPM under load. That is, even on speed 3 it is very difficult to bog the motor because of the increase in torque.

When you encounter a significant curve in the body line that forces the pad to engage the surface at an angle, the pad is far more likely to stall. This is the nature of a random orbital tool. The higher RPM of the motor (again combined with a host of other changes) and the increase in torque does provide more inertia for the pad to spin, so it may drive through this better, but even so a 21mm random orbital will provide 80-90% of its cutting action form the orbital movement alone (provided the pad can transfer the movement to the paint). With the Mark II, far more power is available in the orbital action, so even on the rare occurrence that a pad will stall, it will still deliver far more cutting power to the paint.

Hope this helps.

[ShawnF350]

Thanks Todd,
That`s the best explanation I never expected..lol
I`m sold
I would think being a hobbyist it`s fine having the Mark 1 models.
Did they improve the motor on the mini as well? Though I`ve never experienced that stalling on me.

[Todd@RUPES]

Thanks Todd,
That`s the best explanation I never expected..lol
I`m sold
I would think being a hobbyist it`s fine having the Mark 1 models.
Did they improve the motor on the mini as well? Though I`ve never experienced that stalling on me.

You`re very welcome, thank you for asking the question

The Mark I will still be the same great tool it is - that is it is the tool that very much rewrote how paint correction is accomplished. It will remain as effective and as efficient as ever!

The Duetto and Mini carry on unchanged into 2016. The orbital movement of a 4 inch pad with a 12mm throw doesn`t require a lot of input and the motor already produces significant torque. It doesn`t mean it will never be upgraded, just not at this time. (That I`m aware of)

[RaysWay]

It doesn`t mean it will never be upgraded, just not at this time. (That I`m aware of)

CONFIRMED: NEW Duetto and LHR 75E Mark II Versions coming out SEMA 2016.

[JSFM35X]

Todd

My mark 1 15 is not washer modded. I don`t like changing how the manufacturer intended the tool to operate. I have no seen your opinion on the washer mod and rupes position. Did you or would you mid your tool? From what I`ve read it stops the stalling on curves. Seems like a good thing as long as it does not damage the tool.

I`d be curious to hear to spin on this. (Pun intended)

Thanks

Jeff

[House of Wax]

I need to just quit reading these threads when new tools come out.....

[Dylan@RUPES]

Larry is now part of the marketing effort by Rupes more so than any other product I have seen him discuss.

Other than getting an inside look at the Mark II not really, the 2 videos were shot at the same time, just released separately as it was a tad much for one video and we explicitly asked him to limit some info in the first video so not too much was out there in advance of SEMA. Larry is, if nothing else, neutral - he just happens to be a big fan of our tools and given his visibility in the market we thought it would benefit us to use his traffic in our launch. He is still a heavy megs compound user, and has only really adopted a few of our pads into his use - a point I continue to give him a hard time about.

It would also be nice if Rupes was able to offer an upgrade for a reasonable price to convert a Mark 1 to a Mark 2. If it uses the same outer shell.

Will they consider selling the front piece with the newly added bumper as an accessory for the Mach 1 models?

I`m just thinking back when they had those Kirby and Electrolux vacuums. So many upgrades in the 70s.

While the outward appearance is similar it is not the same case - Mark II parts will not fit on legacy tools and legacy parts will not fit Mark II tools (for the mostpart). While they do maintain a very similar profile the internals, gusseting of the plastic parts, and other components are completely different. While it would be easy to assume you could `upgrade` your current tool the the Mark II with a few parts just by looking at them, the fact is very few things would be compatible between the tools aside from the backing plates.

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd

My mark 1 15 is not washer modded. I don`t like changing how the manufacturer intended the tool to operate. I have no seen your opinion on the washer mod and rupes position. Did you or would you mid your tool? From what I`ve read it stops the stalling on curves. Seems like a good thing as long as it does not damage the tool.

I`d be curious to hear to spin on this. (Pun intended)

Thanks

Jeff

When the BigFoot System was developed, it took nearly 3 years from the ground up. The idea of making a large stroke is pretty easy, just like making a large orbit pedal for your bicycle. Extend the distance from the shaft/axel to the spindle and you have a large diameter orbit.

Most of the development was focused on making this concept as vibration free as possible and making it easy for users of all levels achieve excellent results with minimal training. We ended up with a completely revolutionary counterweight system within the eccentric set - a design so well thought out that many competitors have copied it exactly. To balance the counterweight system correctly, RUPES - a tool maker - had to become a pad manufacturer as the specs on the weight and height of the pad has to match the eccentric set. The third part of the development cycle was to develop polishing compounds that will not absorb into the foam, keeping the balance precise and treating the user to a nearly vibration free experience.

Why the preamble above? Just to highlight the nearly 3 development cycle of the BigFoot System. The Anti-Spin was engineered into the polishers for a reason. It ultimately is a safety device which prevents the pad from over rotating should the operator run the tool in free air. IF the pad was allowed to free orbit, at some point the rotational speed of the pad can catch the orbital speed, and a pad whipping through the air at 4200 RPM - offset - not only can fly off, but the foam structure can become compromised.

Pad rotation itself is a tricky thing. IF the bearing had zero drag and if the pad was completely balanced, it would never spin. The tool would orbit but rotation would not occur. However the bearing has some drag and the pad is never completely balanced so the moment of the orbit becomes inertia to the outer edge of the pad causing it to spin in the same direction as the orbit. When the pad is applied to the paint the force inside the pad is multiplied which can cause the pad to want to rotate quicker. The faster the tool is running, the more this force is multiplied and faster the pad wants to rotate.

Why is this important? Because RUPES developed the BigFoot System (RPM/Pad Type/Compounds/Bearing Drag/AntiSpin Friction) to operate between speeds 4-6. At this speed, the force generated by the pad contacting the paint easily overrides what little friction the Anti Spin produces. This is easy to experience. Run your tool on speed 4-6 in free air, then touch it to the paint. You will see the pad speed up dramatically as it contacts the paint.

Finally here comes your answer

So with our system (pads/compounds/recommended speeds) there is little benefit in disabling the Anti-Spin. I would go so far as to say there is zero. However, many very experienced detailers have noted that they feel the performance is improved by disabling it and removing the slight friction the Anti-Spin produces. If you step outside our system (smaller backing plate, different pads, etc) you may realize a benefit from disabling the Anti-Spin. I cannot say for sure because it would be impossible to test every possible combination.

If you do not keep the back of the backing plate lubricated with dielectric grease, the Anti Spin shroud will eventually wear away anyways. RUPES official stance is not to disable the Anti-Spin but we also acknowledge that it will not effect the longevity of the tool and doing so does not void the warranty (at the current time / subject to change).

[JSFM35X]

Thanks for the through explanation. I will leave the tool alone and should the stalling anoy me, I will pony up for the Mark II.

I am really wanting the iBird, I am hoping that when it is released the price will be something I can justify for use on my own cars.

When the BigFoot System was developed, it took nearly 3 years from the ground up. The idea of making a large stroke is pretty easy, just like making a large orbit pedal for your bicycle. Extend the distance from the shaft/axel to the spindle and you have a large diameter orbit.

Most of the development was focused on making this concept as vibration free as possible and making it easy for users of all levels achieve excellent results with minimal training. We ended up with a completely revolutionary counterweight system within the eccentric set - a design so well thought out that many competitors have copied it exactly. To balance the counterweight system correctly, RUPES - a tool maker - had to become a pad manufacturer as the specs on the weight and height of the pad has to match the eccentric set. The third part of the development cycle was to develop polishing compounds that will not absorb into the foam, keeping the balance precise and treating the user to a nearly vibration free experience.

Why the preamble above? Just to highlight the nearly 3 development cycle of the BigFoot System. The Anti-Spin was engineered into the polishers for a reason. It ultimately is a safety device which prevents the pad from over rotating should the operator run the tool in free air. IF the pad was allowed to free orbit, at some point the rotational speed of the pad can catch the orbital speed, and a pad whipping through the air at 4200 RPM - offset - not only can fly off, but the foam structure can become compromised.

Pad rotation itself is a tricky thing. IF the bearing had zero drag and if the pad was completely balanced, it would never spin. The tool would orbit but rotation would not occur. However the bearing has some drag and the pad is never completely balanced so the moment of the orbit becomes inertia to the outer edge of the pad causing it to spin in the same direction as the orbit. When the pad is applied to the paint the force inside the pad is multiplied which can cause the pad to want to rotate quicker. The faster the tool is running, the more this force is multiplied and faster the pad wants to rotate.

Why is this important? Because RUPES developed the BigFoot System (RPM/Pad Type/Compounds/Bearing Drag/AntiSpin Friction) to operate between speeds 4-6. At this speed, the force generated by the pad contacting the paint easily overrides what little friction the Anti Spin produces. This is easy to experience. Run your tool on speed 4-6 in free air, then touch it to the paint. You will see the pad speed up dramatically as it contacts the paint.

Finally here comes your answer

So with our system (pads/compounds/recommended speeds) there is little benefit in disabling the Anti-Spin. I would go so far as to say there is zero. However, many very experienced detailers have noted that they feel the performance is improved by disabling it and removing the slight friction the Anti-Spin produces. If you step outside our system (smaller backing plate, different pads, etc) you may realize a benefit from disabling the Anti-Spin. I cannot say for sure because it would be impossible to test every possible combination.

If you do not keep the back of the backing plate lubricated with dielectric grease, the Anti Spin shroud will eventually wear away anyways. RUPES official stance is not to disable the Anti-Spin but we also acknowledge that it will not effect the longevity of the tool and doing so does not void the warranty (at the current time / subject to change).

[Detailology Oz]

Very nice reading.
I didn`t buy a rupes initially as I`m not one to simply do whatever a manufacturer says and Limit myself to foam only to correct with, I prefer fibre pads followed by the worlds best foams from Australia and Europe
However with the mark II, I will grab a couple machines and use them for my mid range work with the pads I choose from my pad partner in Europe
I am still very much a forced and rotary fan as its the best when it comes to finish quality but only so many have truly mastered a rotary, 24 years industry experience for me and still learning

As for washer mod - I did it to my metabo duo orbit technology random orbital set on 6.25mm throw as it wasn`t spinning the pad at below speed 3
so a quick washer addition and it spins like a maniac at any speed with hardly any bog down even with full weight pressure, 11000 opm sure kicks butt on some things
works far better thanks to a 80 cent part
I like low speed da correcting when I can, it is part of our future, following on the footsteps of the change to speeds used on a rotary

[Woob]

Has the cord been upgraded on the new Mark II?

[Swanicyouth]

I sold my Mk I 15 and will be pre-ordering the Mk 2. When it comes, I`ll tell you if I feel if there is a significant difference.