What Would You Do?

[jimmybuffit]

This involves black overspray on a black Lincoln LS.



Pictures here are irrelevant... sorry, I tried, they just don`t show the problem.



Anyway, the client is a major insurance company, who sends us ALOT of work (We are their preferred detailer).



We applied AutoInt/ValuGard`s `ABC` 3 step chemical bath. We clayed the *entire* vehicle with AutoMagic`s red clay, and it was perfectly smooth (Baggie test), but we could still see (halogen/metal halide lighting) some remnants of the overspray.



So the insurance company says: "why not try some sandpaper? If we have to repaint it, we`ll still pay you."



Now, I have the Mirka system, with 4000 grit Abralon discs... and an ETG paint thickness guage...



Note that the Lincoln LS has many nonmetalic/fiberglass parts, so I can`t guage thickness...



What would YOU do?



(PROS ONLY, please.)



Jim

[Anthony O.]

I can tell you right now that the Mirka 4000 may not be much more aggressive than the Red Clay.



Before I wetsanded I would wash the car and pull it out in the sun to see if it is even noticeable. If not then bill them and call it done! Sure they might be seen under your lighting conditions but that`s not real world.



If you do decide to wetsand then I would, personally, try to avoid if possible the bumper areas as these areas can burn real easy, being plastic and all so the same goes for the fiberglass, afterall it`s paint and not gel-coat



Hope that helps,

Anthony

[Scottwax]

Without a paint thickness guage, I would probably turn it down. They may be willing to repaint it but if they did, would they be willing to use you again? If you have a thickness guage and can determine the paint thickness of the paint on the body panels, that is probably a good indication of what is on the plastic bumpers and other non-metallic areas. I don`t see why, with computerized paint booths, paint thickness would be much different.



Do you have a body shop you trust or have a good relation with? You might want to consult with them on this one or possibly even turn the job over to them if you don`t feel comfortable taking it.

[Mike_Phillips]

Hi Jim,



I know this is an obvious question, but did you try claying a second time? I know that I don`t always get 100% of the overspray off with one claying procedure. I recently clayed a car, then went over the car with scratchX and then just for fun I clayed it again and I still removed gunk from the finish that the first claying process didn`t remove and the ScratchX didn`t remove.



After that, sanding with the Abralon system is a fairly safe way to go as long as you stay away from high points, edges and any place you cannot machine buff with your rotary to remove your sanding marks.



Another option that I used to remove the white over spray off of a black 1934 Chevrolet Coupe was to rub the entire finish down using some #4 Heavy Cut Cleaner and a piece of terry cloth towel, and then come back and remove my rubbing marks with a W-8006 foam polishing pad on the rotary buffer with some #2 Fine Cut Cleaner.



Here`s what the car looked like, (Note: This is not the car I worked on, just what the car looked like).







It had a lot of edges and raised body lines, as well as hard to reach with a buffer areas, so I couldn`t buff it aggressively by machine.



This was before the 80`s series, and before clay was introduced to America. My process worked however, it just took a long time as I had to be very careful not to rub through the paint. The #4 Heavy Cut Cleaner has a very aggressive diminishing abrasive in it that is easily felt between your fingers. It was this diminishing abrasive and the terry cloth that provided enough bite to both abrade, and loosen the hold of the over spray from the finish.



Another option would be to lightly buff the paint with a wool pad and either a compound or a cleaner/polish. Foam pads tend to glide over overspray and polish the overspray to a high gloss because foam pads tend to be on the gentle side as compared to wool pads. The wool fibers that make up a wool pad are better at cutting into the finish and will tend to be better at removing little dots of paint by kicking them off versus gliding over them.



If it were me, I would first try multiple clay passes to play it safe. If you`ve already done this and overspray still exists, this tells you that the paint/solvent/carrying agent is of a type that was able to chemically bond to the Lincolns finish probably by melting/etching into the clear coat. If this is the case, it may be very difficult to remove safely, let alone completely or quickly.



I`m always telling people at our Saturday classes that sometimes you are better off to improve a defect, than to try to completely remove a defect with the understanding that you only have so much film-build to safely work with.



Meguiar`s always teaches people to first, "Evaluate the Surface".



I always teach people to first, "Evaluate the Customer".



There are some customers that I don`t want to work for because I know I can never meet their expectations. I`m not saying this is the case with this company, but it could be that this overspray problem is one of those problems that nobody, or no companies product can completely fix. If this is the case, then you always want to be upfront and honest with the customer, explain t them to the best of you ability what the problem is, what you can do and then let them decide. Better to play it safe then to make a mistake and have to pay for it twice. Once with your wallet, and a second time with your reputation.



Hope this helps...



Mike

[Mike_Phillips]

A little story



Once when I was first starting out, a local body shop started bringing me cars to detail for their customers. It was good business for me. On one occasion, they brought me a white Ford Bronco, (New), with a single stage white paint job.



The paint had little orange dots of overspray all over it. This was before polyclay was introduced to America, probably circa 1992 or 1993.



I was able to remove the overspray, but I left scratches in the paint from my rubbing process. When I tried to remove my scratches with the rotary buffer, I was unable to do so. The paint was to hard. Before I could see any results from my machine buffing, the paint would become to hot.



I took the truck back down to the owner of the body shop and showed him my results. He was thankful for my efforts and my honesty and then told me it was his shop that was at fault for the overspray. He said that his guys couldn`t remove the overspray at all and that`s why he brought it to me. So while I removed one defect, I only replaced it with another. He paid me for my work and then they repainted the Bronco.



It re-enforced a lesson I had learned previously in my life when it comes to detailing cars and that is, there are some cars you just have to say "No" to. It`s not about you or your skills and abilities, it`s all about the paint.



Mike



p.s.



I don`t really like working on single stage white paint because it tends to be as hard as glass and typically very difficult to remove defects out of without leaving a defect. Here`s a related story on white paint...



A Lesson From White Paint

[Mike_Phillips]

Originally posted by Anthony Orosco

Before I wetsanded I would wash the car and pull it out in the sun to see if it is even noticeable. If not then bill them and call it done! Sure they might be seen under your lighting conditions but that`s not real world.



Anthony

This is another option. It kind of fits with what I wrote about how sometimes you an improve a defect, but completely remove a defect. If you choose to go down this path, you might want to be upfront with the customer about this to start with so it doesn`t come back to bite you in the behind down the road.



Honesty is the best policy.



Mike

[Scottwax]

Wow! Great insight and write-ups, Mike!

[Mike_Phillips]

If you decide to wet sand with the Mirka system. First do what I always do and that is a "Test Spot".



A good Test Spot is where you perform the entire process from start to finish in one area and then check your results. In this case it would be wet-sand, cut, polish, wax and then inspect under at least two kinds of light.



If it looks good, the repeat the process to the entire car. If it doesn`t, then stop.



If you cannot make one small area look good with your choice of products and procedures, then you will not be able to make the entire car look good.



Mike

[jimmybuffit]

Anthony, youâ€â„¢re correct, but the 2000 did have some effect, finished with 4000 and Speed Glaze.



Also, I got it all pretty and shiny. I took it back to the claim centerâ€Â¦ they have wonderful metal halide lighting. Thatâ€â„¢s when they suggested sanding!



So Iâ€â„¢ve ended up with a combination of all the options as a viable solutionâ€Â¦ Iâ€â„¢ll probably have 20 hours in the exterior of this car! That should be an $800 charge, but it wonâ€â„¢t beâ€Â¦



At the end of the day, Iâ€â„¢ll offer my best effort to the client/insurance coâ€Â¦ I have no idea of what to expect from themâ€Â¦



But theyâ€â„¢ll see a swirl free black car, thatâ€â„¢s for sure. Regardless of the outcome/final opinion, I think this experience will just strengthen our relationship.



Iâ€â„¢ll followup next weekâ€Â¦



Jim



Mike, your input is priceless. Thank You.

[joburnet]

I didn`t read what everyone else wrote because I`m busy, but here`s my 2 cents.



If it`s not noticable with a camera then chances are that the customer isn`t even going to notice. Tell them what you were able to get done and they will probably be very pleased with it. I find that I care much more about small problems with customers cars then the customers themselves do and most of them are very pleased even if I can`t get it perfect.



So my advice is don`t worry about it and just give it back to the customer and I`m sure that he`ll be pleased with it.

[imported_BumpersPlus2]

If you have tried all your methods that your experience has allowed, and Im certain you have asked the Grumpy one, I wouldnt break out any harsh sand paper. Im sure the insurance company was planning on painting it anyway. Ive done some dealer work, who wanted the blemish diminished or removed and no concern for the film build. The manager just wants to get it over the line. If they decide on painting it, ask for one more shot and try some extreme measures. If you sand thru then, they were going to reshoot anyway, and you will have learned whether or not you could remove it. My 2 cents