AcrylicWerks Test Car #2

[Anthony O.]

Bruce,



May we have your opinion on the panels tested? It has been over a week now since I did the two panels and it is obvious from just using a QD to wipe the surfaces clean that the AW side did not sem to do as well as the other side using conventional means.



Now it can be argued that I did not properly apply the AW but for me that is a cop out and would mean that I can not follow written directions or that I somehow stacked the deck in my favor.



Well in response to the first thought I would disagree because it is part of my profession to be able to read and follow directions. If not then I may harm myself or worse a clients fine auto.



In response to the second thought I have nothing to gain nor lose in this test. I have always given AW the benefit of doubt and said many times that AW just might be the detailers silver bullet.



To recap AW does leave a shine, it does make the surface slick and I am sure it gives a good amount of protection but it is also time consuming and a great deal of effort. For a pro this is a disadvantage because of the time involved. Far greater results can be achieved through conventional means.



For the enthusiast (those on this board who are not pros) they would cringe at the thought of having to use this product in the sun. You also, perhaps, overlook the fact that Autopians are very anal and while protection is important it is not the main course of their detailing mindset. It is chasing after the ever elusive ultimate gloss and depth in ones finish. I must admit that AW does not produce that depth and gloss.



What say you?



Thank you,

Anthony

[biswartz]

Anthony,



It is in my humble opinion that you have made an exceptional effort in testing both products side by side. My observations of your seemingly dedicated and fair assessment of the product is based upon your efforts, responses, and assessments (based on factual data) and from what Mark has told me of your willingness, in reality, to be as fair as possible in providing the Autopians with good data. Therefore I do not doubt your credibility and sincerity in getting to the facts and to take it a bit further, I trust your ability in providing fair and accurate evaluations to the best of your ability. However I cannot honestly give you an assessment based solely on the photos of the two panels for the reason that the manner in which the photos were taken may have had an adverse impact upon the results, rendering an imprecise outcome.



Now please allow me to explain. You now know I am an analyst, and as such I too am quite anal, after all anal is the first four letters in analyst but I digress. My eyes are trained to look at things where most others would not. In the case of your two pictures, and I hope I can explain this well enough for all to understand, the two pictures were taken at two different angles, approximately 95°, and possibly within only a few minutes from each other. This is based upon the cloud formation seen in both pictures which was most helpful. Also the angle of the camera was lower in one picture than the other. These two seemingly harmless conditions can obscure final results even if both sections of the hood were polished by the same product. Being part of the testing community for the US Navy, the biggest advantage we have at our facility is the ability for repeatability which is how one ensures accurate measurements. And during testing we not only have the customer on-board watching but vendors, manufacturers, testers, and everyone who has a vested interest in the results.



If I may Anthony, I would like to ask a favor of you. I would like to have you take these pictures again now that you have a little clearer picture (pun not intended) on the importance of a more controlled testing process. And I think all would be agreeable that both you and Mark be present during the entire phase of the process. I want to make it very clear to all Autopians out there in Autopia Land that accuracy in executing and monitoring tests is crucial in all successful test assessments and final analysis. Then you both can submit your final conclusions. I would also suggest that you both sit down together and agree on what conclusions you both wish to come to in the final analysis which will be published. I know there has been a lot of hype over whether or not Acrylic-Wërks has leveling properties which I cannot ever remember Mark ever saying it had. My personal experience has been in light swirls, not deep scratches. At any rate, you two get together, draw up your conclusions then retake the test/challenge. And oh by the way, who ever said detailers had to hand-apply Acrylic-Wërks anyway? Mark told me never to apply Acrylic-Wërks using a buffer because if I didn’t know what I was doing I could burn right through the paint, especially on corners. And guess what, he was right but he told me after I had ruined part of the paint on my 1978 Thunderbird years before. So as a novice, I listened to Mark however, as far as professionals are concerned, by applying Acrylic-Wërks like you would your other products, you can get incredible results.



I appreciated and was quite honored by your asking my opinion Anthony – I hope I did not let you down.



Bruce

[Anthony O.]

Bruce,



Great reply and I thank you. Now please allow me to explain something in the area of rotary usage.



Lets say I take a mild cleaner, such as Pinnacles Cleansing Lotion, and apply it to a cars surface with a rotary. Because the cleanser itself is so mild it would do little or nothing at removing medium to heavy oxidation, swirls, scratches or blemishes in the paint. Why? Well because the abrasive in the Cleansing Lotion is not designed to work with a high speed rotary. One may try to use a cutting pad with the mild cleanser but then the outcome will be bad swirls, most likely. This is due to the mild cleaner being intended for use by hand or by orbital but not a rotary. The rotary produces too much heat and friction and the mild cleaner would quickly evaporate and then it is the dry pad alone being worked on the paint. No lubrication.



Now lets take a product like Meguiars #4 Heavy Cleaner. It is on the very abrasive side of the chart and while it can be used by hand the results will be less than flattering. Why? Well because it works with diminishing abrasives. This means that as heat and friction are applied to the product, which starts out as an abrasive cleaner, it turns into a polishing lotion as the grit is broken down. It would be like sanding a piece of wood and in one step and you go from 150 grit to say 300 grit.



AW does not seem to be designed to be used with a high speed rotary. It might be able to be applied with a PC but even here we must ask some questions, like if I use a PC to apply the AW do I then have to also work with water? I ask because we all know that water and electricity don`t mix well.



Also if AW will not level paint and give me a nice gloss then I must use a paint leveler and then a gloss enhancing product and then top that with AW.......but that would be fruitless because AW contains cleaners in it and would strip my polish off, correct?



As for Mark being there for another test car I really have no problem with that except I must then ask why? I get the sense that if someone does not have a good performance with the AW then it somehow comes down to user error. Case in point, BradNC. He did his best with the product, not once but several times. He even watched Marks video and followed Marks movements while doing his very own car. Still BradNC did not have good results.



So are we to then expect Mark to pack up and go to each and every person that has a bad experience with AW? Well I highly doubt that. The truth is that the product, AW, is not all that great, which in no way is a reflection of Mark because Mark is himself a cool guy. My problem comes when it does not do a good job or does not perform as told or expected and the reply is, almost always it seems, "Well did you use this towel and this towel only?, Did you fold the towel this way? Did you use the correct size water buckets?, "Try it in this direction".....etc.



It does seem as of now that no matter what results are posted. even with pictures, something will be found to suggest that it was not a complete and formal test. I tried to get the same angle on both pics as possible but I will not go out with a laser level and make sure the degree of angle is the same, lighting the same and so on. That would take a lab.



Good news here though is that this is not an absolute. Unlike truth, which is absolute and can be known, the realm or area of auto detailing is subjective and relative and what works for you, what gives you nice results, only has to please you and not me or others for that matter. What we can test though are the claims made by Mark about AW`s. We can test it to see if it can in fact remove and not hide or cover up swirls, correct?



The personal likes and dislikes of the person buying and using the product are "personal" and these cannot be tested and found to be false.



Thank You,

Anthony

[biswartz]

Anthony,



How refreshing to carry on an intelligent conversation. You once again state an accurate appraisal of testing. Allow me to take it up another notch however – two or more is less subjective than only one and that is not to say anyone would be to blame; but let’s look at it from an analytical perspective. Are two heads better than one, four eyes better than two? The test outcome and final photo must be based on results which both sides have physically observed and can say without objection that the test was properly conducted, monitored (to the best humanly possible) and documented.



People will be people and Anthony we will never agree more – there is no way on God’s Green Earth that everyone will believe everything one or two may say. People will have doubts; they will dispute evidence even if it is so blatantly clear it boggles the mind that they would even attempt to make a case. My goodness, haven’t we all witnessed countless times catching someone in a lie, actually observing an act yet they deny ever have done anything wrong. I am not pointing fingers but it really matters not to what business we are in, we will always find behavior such as this and I will tell you first hand, I have had numerous experiences even with Engineers whom you would think would be above that kind of conduct.



So what is the best method to reduce as much disbelief as possible? By bringing in the one person, you Anthony, who has been very proactive in getting truth along with the person responsible for Acrylic-Wërks, Mark, for as close to a controlled test as possible. Will it be perfect? Of course not and yet the surroundings will be more equitable for all concerned. And so for all those who afterwards dispute the results? All we can say is this; it is less likely that people will listen to or trust them and after all Anthony, we are looking for quality, both in product and in service.



So in closing, get with Mark, sit down and allow both of you the opportunity for a solid one-on-one high technical discussion on how this product actually performs under all conditons. Your reputation precedes you therefore you are the right person for this experiment.



Good luck to you both and if you need my assistance, give me a shout.



Bruce

[biff]

...whenever Mark is proven wrong, that a mysterious "satisfied customer" with a very intimate knowledge of his product and business emerges on the forums to take up where Mark left off?





Anyone else find this just a little bit suspicious? You know where I`m going with this.....

[biswartz]

It is more important to use fact than innuendoes.



Is it more important to look for negatives (claim someone is wrong) or to research and get facts. Let it play out Biff – you may get what you are after yet on the other hand maybe everyone will win with some very good results. Your response after the results, and possibly before, will tell us all where you “really� are going.



Mr. Suspicious himself – yet reasonable,

Bruce……

[milani]

Originally posted by Biff

...whenever Mark is proven wrong, that a mysterious "satisfied customer" with a very intimate knowledge of his product and business emerges on the forums to take up where Mark left off?





Anyone else find this just a little bit suspicious? You know where I`m going with this.....

By reading these posts (as beat like a dead horse as they are), AWMark and biswartz are completely different people. Not to knock Mark, but the posts by biswartz are way more technical and intelligent sounding. Maybe AWMark got Diggs involved to fuel the fire too????? :nixweiss I AM KIDDING in that remark, so no flames please...

[Diggs]

no one got me involved except for me. i know when i see a BS product and marketing scam. its ok to like a product, but to push a product without making any sense at all only to insult other peoples intellegence with big words and quotes from authors doesnt do much for the product. when u want simple answers and replys and get a poem of nonsense it tends to make people frustrated and angry. sorry but this 7.8.9.etc page thread hasnt seen anything but talk until anthony volunteered his time and expertise to try this product. he used the product, followed the directions and got the results and posted them. even after multiple times with the product and comparing it to others we see the results and still certain people argue that anthony or the autopia community doesnt know what we are doing. maybe the product didnt work as well for us as it did for you but in the world today not all cars and car paint is the same so a more consistant product and method is going to be more sufficient.



in other words AW =:sign



p.s. it may be a good one step product but it def. got way over hyped. if u want u can flame me with big words and quotes now

[biswartz]

It is a shame you have to be so angry Diggs - I`m not - even with all the personal spears I have received. I am simply sticking up for a product I like very much and would like to see get a fair trial. There isn`t much difference here between you and I; I want to make sure people are properly informed.



The problem is I keep getting my teeth kicked in (mostly Mark however), and yet when I get back up and put forth common sense and structure to responses in order to get a point across, more slams come and down I go again. Then someone else comes along and claims victorious because they really stuck it to someone else. These have only been battle of words which are non-productive and prove absolutely nothing. I have stated my case from the perspective of honesty and fair play – not one-sided reviews, observations or hearsay. Your industry has tons to gain if Acrylic-Wërks is proven to be good or bad; but only if your industry can step through a more controlled and equitable evaluation process with all perspective parties present. Hey that’s how all evaluation processes take place, not anecdotally.



And I apologize to people like Milani who can see this as again beating a dead horse but why should you or anyone else be so vindictive and bitter towards a new product, idea, process, technology, or even any person who doesn’t do or think exactly the way you do, especially when you have no bases for that bashing? And why should I simply cower, kowtow, or bow down to such treatment, whether or not it is directed towards me, you or anyone else? I will always respond to attacks however lethal (and Diggs, I have never initiated a single one – and that is fact) because if I don’t, vicious and mean-spirited people will think they can get away with it and make it just that much more miserable for everyone else. And Diggs, this is really a friendly caution – you left yourself wide open for many slams but it is not my intent to do so. So let’s allow things to play out with the pros shall we? Get a bag of popcorn along with an ice-cold glass of cream soda and enjoy the show….. We may all learn something – especially me.



By the way Milani, those are very impressive photos you posted and I just joined BenzWorld because of you. It looks to be a very informative site which I can use.



Bruce

[milani]

Originally posted by biswartz

And I apologize to people like Milani who can see this as again beating a dead horse but why should you or anyone else be so vindictive and bitter towards a new product, idea, process, technology, or even any person who doesn’t do or think exactly the way you do, especially when you have no bases for that bashing?



By the way Milani, those are very impressive photos you posted and I just joined BenzWorld because of you. It looks to be a very informative site which I can use.



Bruce

I do not think I have been vindictive by posting my "reflections" comparison, or plexus reference (my only two posts in this thread other than the one above). I have been reading this thread, which is way out of hand, and becoming almost like "nursery school at the bowling alley" . To make my final judgement, I will be waiting for my free sample (if it is still coming :nixweiss) from Mark. I have an 82 Honda CB750K with Royal Blue paint just screaming for attention from an applicator and buffing towel!



Thanks for the compliments! Also, check out mbworld.org if you are interested in MBZ`s...:xyxthumbs



Mike

[AWMark]

Hello To All:

I`m going to put my two cents in now. I just stayed back and watched what some of you posted. I know that most of the interested onlookers are not professional detailers by trade, but are curious to the information provided in this forum.

Unfortunately, what we did here, was draw a line in the sand. My product on one side, professional detailers and their products on the other. So far, I`m sure most everyone feels I`ve targeted my product at the detailers, and therefore have taken on the brunt of soliciting another miracle product. That couldn`t be further from the truth.

Let`s look at this picture from another stand point. First, as I`ve stated before, my method of presenting this product has been the same for seven years. I stand in a military parking lot, hot, cool, sunny or cloudy and let interested individuals bring me their vehicle, r.v., or boat for a free demonstration. I look the surfaces over and state at that time what I`m going to restore. By hand I will work wiper arms, plastic cowl(smooth or textured), black plastic b-pillar, rubber seal, paint or clearcoat and rims. If the vehicle has faded headlamps or bugshield I will always do those first. On occassions I will also demo interior woodwork, vinyl and windshields. I do this with one product. When the demo is done I have generally earned a new customer, but some customers want to test this and come back to me in 1-2 weeks, and they do with each demo spot still looking the same after 1 to 2 weeks.

Now, for the sake of putting the professional datailer on my side of the line. To do this type of demo, you would no doubt have to use several products. If this demo was done by hand it would take its fair share of time. To do this demo by buffer really requires someone with experience. In the end, the consumer would no doubt be impressed but I think they would leave this in the hands of a professional. The only difference would be the cost. I`m only guessing that a detail could run between 125.00 and maybe 250.00.

For the consumer who cannot affoerd this, I offer a great alternative. In the end I`m sure you will keep your customers, and I will continue to maintain my core customers. The only thing I`m considering now, is launching a program nationally that will allow me access to the non-military public, and this will involve face to face demonstrations not an infomercial.

I`m signing off for now.



Mark G.

[2000_EBP_civic]

Originally posted by Biff

...whenever Mark is proven wrong, that a mysterious "satisfied customer" with a very intimate knowledge of his product and business emerges on the forums to take up where Mark left off?





Anyone else find this just a little bit suspicious? You know where I`m going with this.....

i noticed this too and it also strikes me as being odd that he`s going to such great lengths to defend the product. I`m a zaino fan but if someone on here bashes it, i`m not going to write a novel defending it.

[biswartz]

Sorry Milani, "you" was not directed towards you but the person I was writing. You had mentioned the pettiness of the thread and unfortunately as you can see it continues.



I will check out mbworld.org, thanks.



I had forgotten how great driving a Benz was until I got my Kompressor.



Below is a pic of my `66 250SE Coupe which I wish I still had. This was taken in NC back, and I hate saying this, 1977. I picked it up in Germany and changed out or rebuilt the entire drive train. What a driver she was!



Bruce

[Bobby G]

Dear Autopians,



I have now received 4 complaints about this thread. The complaints ranges from use of language to concerns of SPAM. That`s more than enough for me to decide that it`s in the best interest of the community to close it.



For those of you who are planning to try the product, we would all like to read your independent feedback in the Autopia Products forum.



To all those concerned about your personal involvement in this thread being closed, please review our community rules at http://www.autopia.org/rules.php.



To all members who reported this thread, thank you for your input and concern.



David