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Thread: $$$$$$

  1. #31

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    "A black SL55 with Ceramic paint will more than likely need at least a 2 step correction via a rotary. How you can do that in 5 hours w/o leaving trails and doing any kind of moderate level of correction is amazing? Maybe that’s why the results vary.

    There’s definitely a learning curve with the KBM. Process it key. When you stray from it, quality results will not be achieved. Have you followed any of the instructions already posted?" David Fermani



    You are correct with this analysis. In May of 2008, Kevin Brown sent me an email about using M105 with the PC, based off of a question I posted on another site. His email is what is now known as the KBM. That particular day, I had a red C5 Vette scheduled. These are known for having harder clears. I was very skeptical of his email, but figured, what the heck, I`ll try it. I was getting correction on that Vette with the lowly PC. As a matter of fact, I was able to REMOVE swirls with an 5.5" LC low profile pad, the PC, speed 6, and M105 following Kevin`s instructions to the letter. I was amazed. Keep in mind the previous C5 I had done for this client I used the rotary, and 3 polishing steps.



    Well, in September of last year, I had a client call me with a white ceramiclear SL. I decided to play around with the KBM. I tried with my PC, as well as the Flex, and I couldn`t get satisfactory results, so out came the rotary. This is a car where there was no chance in he!! that PC was going to correct it.



    Just my $.02.
    Ridding the world of swirls, one car at a time!

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Fermani

    So, are you saying that you haven’t been doing “serious corrections” prior to your recent swap over to a rotary? All those Click N Brags were a hoax? :grinno:






    I haven`t been able to correct to the level I can now, but that doesn`t mean the cars I`ve done with the UDM/Cyclo taking out moderate defects looked bad. Just that last 5-10% improvement took a rotary to achieve.



    I also don`t believe I ever claimed I was doing full corrections with the PC/UDM/Cyclo, nor was I charging customers for full corrections.



    A black SL55 with Ceramic paint will more than likely need at least a 2 step correction via a rotary. How you can do that in 5 hours w/o leaving trails and doing any kind of moderate level of correction is amazing? Maybe that’s why the results vary.


    90-120 minutes with #105, 90 with #205 and 45 with Ultrafina does a pretty good job removing swirls without leaving trails. Obviously if you are shooting for as close to perfection as possible you`d spend more time with #105 and maybe do some wetsanding too. However, I find that #205 does a really good job cutting out anything #105 leaves behind without leaving anything more than minimal trails. I am seeing cars I`ve done using #105/205 and UF several months ago and not one has buffer trails anywhere on the car. I didn`t even follow with the PC on my own car even though if I do leave anything behind it might be weeks before I can get to it.



    I do believe polishing in the full sun helps, heats the metal under the paint so the paint itself is as fully expanded as it is going to get which seems to make removing defects easier. I definitely notice a difference in the winter or when working out of the sun. Plus, working in the sun makes it very easy to check for holograms and the sun does a good job baking out polishing oils. Try using #83 (if you have some) and check the work in the sun and then 5 minutes later. Can be pretty scary.





    There’s definitely a learning curve with the KBM. Process it key. When you stray from it, quality results will not be achieved. Have you followed any of the instructions already posted?


    I believe I am properly following what I do know about the method-fully prime the pad, slow passes under heavy pressure, spritz with water as the polish begins to dry. So far, it seems more time consuming than using a rotary. Not only that, but I`ve already gone through 3 G110s without using the heavy pressure the KB method seems to require. Do you think this method may have an impact on how long DA polishers last?



    Also, to be quite honest, I like using the rotary. So smooth compared to a DA buffer.
    www.scottwax.com

    Certified Opti-Coat Pro/Pro 3 installer

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwax




    I haven`t been able to correct to the level I can now, but that doesn`t mean the cars I`ve done with the UDM/Cyclo taking out moderate defects looked bad. Just that last 5-10% improvement took a rotary to achieve.









    90-120 minutes with #105, 90 with #205 and 45 with Ultrafina does a pretty good job removing swirls without leaving trails. Obviously if you are shooting for as close to perfection as possible you`d spend more time with #105 and maybe do some wetsanding too. However, I find that #205 does a really good job cutting out anything #105 leaves behind without leaving anything more than minimal trails. I am seeing cars I`ve done using #105/205 and UF several months ago and not one has buffer trails anywhere on the car. I didn`t even follow with the PC on my own car even though if I do leave anything behind it might be weeks before I can get to it.



    I do believe polishing in the full sun helps, heats the metal under the paint so the paint itself is as fully expanded as it is going to get which seems to make removing defects easier. I definitely notice a difference in the winter or when working out of the sun. Plus, working in the sun makes it very easy to check for holograms and the sun does a good job baking out polishing oils. Try using #83 (if you have some) and check the work in the sun and then 5 minutes later. Can be pretty scary.









    I believe I am properly following what I do know about the method-fully prime the pad, slow passes under heavy pressure, spritz with water as the polish begins to dry. So far, it seems more time consuming than using a rotary. Not only that, but I`ve already gone through 3 G110s without using the heavy pressure the KB method seems to require. Do you think this method may have an impact on how long DA polishers last?



    Also, to be quite honest, I like using the rotary. So smooth compared to a DA buffer.




    You are slightly off in your KBM process. You don`t ever introduce water into the method when using foam. This can cause clumping of the non diminishing abraisives, and creates a scenario similar to if you were trying to wetsand with some 1000, some 1500, and some 2000 grit particles all on the same sheet of sand paper. Therefore, you can often create swirls, instead of removing them.



    The only time you introduce spritzes of water is when using the Surbuf pads with the fingers.
    Ridding the world of swirls, one car at a time!

  4. #34

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    I love interesting threads like this..... LOL

  5. #35
    Barry Theal's Avatar
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    wow I can`t beleive how many people use m105/m205 combos? that is crazy.
    Barry E. Theal
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    Founder of Americana Global Inc.


  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by weekendwarrior
    You are slightly off in your KBM process. You don`t ever introduce water into the method when using foam. This can cause clumping of the non diminishing abraisives, and creates a scenario similar to if you were trying to wetsand with some 1000, some 1500, and some 2000 grit particles all on the same sheet of sand paper. Therefore, you can often create swirls, instead of removing them.



    The only time you introduce spritzes of water is when using the Surbuf pads with the fingers.


    I`ve tried it with a rotary and it seems to work well (gave me some additional buffing time), didn`t notice any problems when doing it with the G110 either. Like I said, I don`t believe the method has been fully written out so I am going by what I have seen other mention. Once the instructions are finalized, I`ll have to see how well it works for me. Probably have to get a different DA, not sure the G110 will hold up to heavy pressure and being kept on 6.



    Biggest problem is the vibration of DA buffers vs the rotary. All else being equal, I`d use the rotary for corrections simply because it is so smooth in comparison.
    www.scottwax.com

    Certified Opti-Coat Pro/Pro 3 installer

  7. #37
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferbarry
    wow I can`t beleive how many people use m105/m205 combos? that is crazy.




    Have you ever taken a stab at it Barry? How about you Jake?
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

  8. #38

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    I personally love the 105/205 combo Dave.. Probably one of the best out on the market right now. which reminds me I need to put an order in for more 105 here soon.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferbarry
    wow I can`t beleive how many people use m105/m205 combos? that is crazy.


    They flat work. Simple as that. Right now, IMO, they are the polishes to beat...and I believe a lot of companies are now working to see what they can come up with. Imagine how good the polish/compound that is better will be!
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  10. #40
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakerooni
    I personally love the 105/205 combo Dave.. Probably one of the best out on the market right now. which reminds me I need to put an order in for more 105 here soon.


    You replied faster that I could edit. :har: Ever try them with a DA polisher?
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

  11. #41
    Barry Theal's Avatar
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    I actually like polishing with an air d/a now those are amazing.
    Barry E. Theal
    Presidential Details Of Lancaster PA
    Founder of Americana Global Inc.


  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferbarry
    I actually like polishing with an air d/a now those are amazing.


    You using a Dynabrade? I believe that is what the Big 3 use on the assembly line.
    www.scottwax.com

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  13. #43
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    I`m waiting to try that. I actually have some 105/orange pad in the trunk in case I get a chance when I`m at a Body Shop.
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

  14. #44

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    I used it with my G110. Got great results with it. I personally find a lot of use for both machines (well in my case all 4 of them) which is why I find this thread funny. a D/A is NOT faster or better than a rotary and visa versa. anyone that says so it either closed minded or unskilled at whichever one they are downing. I can correct just as fast with either. I find it much easier to use a rotary for correction work over the D/A but that`s just because I`ve been using a rotary for over 15 years now and a D/A for just over a year. I love both tools. and I really think they have their solid uses. Saying a D/A is better than a rotary is dumb. but saying a rotary will beat out a D/A all the time is just as dumb to say as well. Both are highly effective tools. if you perfere one over the other so be it. It`s your business run it the way you want. But don`t jump other people for running their business differently. We all work in our own comfort zones and we all love what we do.

  15. #45
    Barry Theal's Avatar
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    I use a norton d/a at the house here. Yes I have used m105/205 combos tons of times. I also like a few others they make which are often overlooked like m95, and cut and solo cream. I`m just shocked by how many use them. I`m a amazed that not many people here use other products. Like malco, Automagic, Ardex. or if they are there not admitting to it. lol I just think there are so many other gret products out there.
    Barry E. Theal
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