Let`s hear from the "Hacks"

[RaskyR1]

I will add to rasky`s definition a little. If you do sloppy work KNOWING you`re doing sloppy, less than on par, work and still wanting to charge pro level prices then yes your a hack. I figure someone taught us all. Some of us we`re taught right. Others were not. But how do you know if you were taught right or taugh wrong if the way you do things is the only way you`ve ever known??? most "Hacks" have no clue they are hacks. They`ll obviously never admit it because they honestly think the way they are doing it is THE only right way to do it. remember for 99% of the customers out there as long as the car is clean and shiney when the pick it up is all that matters. Having swirls come back a week later is usually something that dosen`t get brought up to often so the detailer never thinks they need to improved because they filled those swirls in nice and pretty like.

Very true! :2thumbs:

[brwill2005]

Only doing long two and three day corrections is a niche market. Most if not all the people I do business with simply want a clean car inside and out. They are also usually interested in some type of protection, and maybe a one-step polish. The few who do ask about full paint correction are usually a bit surprised to hear that it is billed out hourly and could take 8-10 hours or more. A big part of my business is maintenance contracts. These are high end cars whose owners want them kept in top condition all the time. Most of them are too busy to worry about caring for their cars. The cars are washed and vacuumed either bi-weekly or monthly depending on the person. Wax or sealant is applied twice or so a year as needed. Because these cars are being properly cared for by only me, it is rare for them to need any polishing. Usually an AIO product suffices if the car needs it. It actually works out very well business wise, because over the course of a year I make more on one persons car doing maintenance details than I would if I did a one time two day correction.

[LeadingEdgeDetail]

IMO a hack is a person doing sloppy/poor work. I don`t think price has anything to do with it.





If there is polish sling on the windows, in the cracks, or on the trim, you might be a hack!



If you applied tire dressing with a sprayer on a windy day and didn`t notice all the silicone specs on the paint...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the windows and neglected to clean the sunroof, rear view mirror, or vanity mirrors...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the engine with a strong degreaser and stained the paint on the fenders...you might be a hack!



I you burned the rubber trim on a car (Lambo) because you didn`t tape them off...you might be a hack!



If you took a rotary buffer to a black car and delivered it to the customers with more swirls than a toilet bowl...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned a customer’s interior and they find pop cans and candy under the seat...you might be a hack!

Great post!! Funny and true! And not insulting! Lets keep this list going...

[Relaited]

If you can get the high line stuff, at your margin, that falls in the pro category, there are many, I will try to get off that horse, I can see some get my point.



In line with the hack line of questioning ... what about training ... I am very well educated, but 4 years ago ... I`d call myself a hacker … not much training



But since then, I have spent time and money on training and have had the good fortune to develop relationships with some of the best our there, who are willing to share, and I am a voracious learner. So now I move myself out of that as I am well trained.



We are close to some good news that we will be bringing a world class trainer into our relationship. Not perfect now, but I know I can justify a claim of continuous improvement with lofty goals!



It does go to my bias about this industry, but I am open minded … I think these 2 issues on what is a Detail, and who is a Detailer are vital to improving the professionalism of our industry. Not in how we define it, but how a customer does, or how the Car Manufacturers do, etc



So, in order to not be a "hack", do you need to have had formal training ... beyond I watched a guy do it, then he let me try it, now I am on my own type of thing? Or what level of training or apprenticeship is appropriate.



-jim

[imported_weekendwarrior]

So, in order to not be a "hack", do you need to have had formal training ... beyond I watched a guy do it, then he let me try it, now I am on my own type of thing? Or what level of training or apprenticeship is appropriate.



-jim

I agree with you completely on this point. You are correct that a lot of people purchase a business license, and a few products, and are a suddenly a pro.



My definition of not being a hack, is being a tax paying business, that is insured, having a technical understanding of what you are doing (understanding the theory behind machine polishing, how paint systems are done, etc..), as well as the ability to do it, and a good understanding of sound business principles (from accounting and marketing, all the way to customer service).



PS - I am enjoying your dialogue much more now that you are conversing in this manner, versus harping on the zero water waste.

[Envious Eric]

I dont think training has much to do with it...if you can perform a job better than the majority out there, then you are a pro (think in terms of pro sports) In a sense, this is the same thing.



proâ‹…fesâ‹…sionâ‹…al

   /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA

–adjective

1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.

2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.

3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.

4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.

5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,� he said, “is a professional optimist.�

7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.

8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.

9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.

–noun

10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.

11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.

12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.

13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

[Envious Eric]

My definition of not being a hack, is being a tax paying business, that is insured, having a technical understanding of what you are doing (understanding the theory behind machine polishing, how paint systems are done, etc..), as well as the ability to do it, and a good understanding of sound business principles (from accounting and marketing, all the way to customer service)

just for the sake of discussion:



if you dont pay taxes, or dont carry insurance, yet you do better work and get paid more because of said higher quality, you are not a pro?



what about the guy who doesnt know anythign business related yet turns out concourse type work on every single car...not a pro?

[imported_weekendwarrior]

just for the sake of discussion:



if you dont pay taxes, or dont carry insurance, yet you do better work and get paid more because of said higher quality, you are not a pro?



what about the guy who doesnt know anythign business related yet turns out concourse type work on every single car...not a pro?

GREAT counterpoint. I think that would make you a great detailer that should work for someone else, but not a great detailer that owns and runs your own company in a hands on manner.



Not paying taxes or having insurance would also make me question one`s judgement this day and age.



Just one man`s opinion.

[Stealth]

I work at a hack detailing center. I perform hack jobs but like many people already put, you get what you pay for. The priority of the shop I work at is to get the work done as quick as possible because as soon as you get done with car #1, car #2, #3...#20 are about to be sent to your "detail" bay to be worked on. If 3 people come in at the same time and want a detail, say a wash and wax normally would take around 30 minutes, you don`t get 90 minutes for the 3, you get 30 minutes for all of them. This requires me to cut corners to get the cars done in a timely fashion and sometimes that means I have to skip doing windows on the car and park it in the shade so they won`t notice.



It drives me nuts. I might have a complete detail, a complete interior detail, and two waxes altogether - there is no way I`m going to worry about buffer trails on the complete detail...it will probably take me 20 minutes to fully glaze the whole car to fill many of the swirls in. The problem is people call us hacks...and we know what we do but there is too much work to do in one day to worry about trying to do a better job...it`s just not happening. Plus, a full wash-clay-buff-wax, is only costing the customer $110.00. Someone here please tell me how many swirls deserved to be properly removed after the entire car has been fully washed, fully clayed (with heavy duty clay because their car has been sitting for 12 years without a wash), inside fully vacuumed and dusted down with vinyl dressed, as well as a wax after the buffing. We get around $7.5/hr plus tips if we get any. I`m thinking the car deserves 30% MORE swirls for that initial price and our initial pay.



I know how to detail, I know what it takes to get that 90-100% correction - but due to college courses - the available time just isn`t there. And people rage at me for missing a small print on the inside of their rear windows for their $35.00 wash and wax - as I`m walking back to see my 6 other details that need to be done in a 2 hour time period, knowing I`ll have 8 other details to do after those 6 are done, and it`s only 12:00 p.m. right now.

[David Fermani]

just for the sake of discussion:



if you dont pay taxes, or dont carry insurance, yet you do better work and get paid more because of said higher quality, you are not a pro?



what about the guy who doesnt know anythign business related yet turns out concourse type work on every single car...not a pro?

GREAT counterpoint. I think that would make you a great detailer that should work for someone else, but not a great detailer that owns and runs your own company in a hands on manner.



Not paying taxes or having insurance would also make me question one`s judgement this day and age.



Just one man`s opinion.

Great thread! I fall into the category of not having insurance, but I also consider myself a Pro. I don`t feel ability/quality can be determined based on one`s interest in insuring their exposure to liability. I (based on my insurance background and current risks) don`t have a need to insure myself. I no longer detail full time but when I did I was insured. As far as price/quality, I also have a minimum charge of $400 (1 step correction ~ 1 day process) and belive I do a better job than 99% of the people in my area that detail for a living charging $100-$200 for a complete detail. I`d definately classify them as hacks based on the Autopian spectrum of detailing, but quality doesn`t mean much if their customer`s needs are satified. Is that a bad thing - NO. If they can make a long term, profitable living doing this, more power to them. It just erks me when they think they produce high quality results when I know they don`t know the 1st thing about the concept.

[Relaited]

Just to clarify ... it is my opinion that one who does a great job detailing, one that can read paint, knows the appropriate tools for the job ... that is a technician.



A Pro would have all the necessary insurance, licensing, taken the training, spends time in continuing education, does follow proper requirements on discharge, labor laws, etc.



I am not slighting anyone`s ability to perform a service, just the “legitimacy� under which it is done.



I think one of the issues here is that anyone can define detailing, can grab the proverbial bucket & hose and call themselves a detailer. I know it is more than that … but not always.



For the pro, I think you need to be the total package. A "hack" with the right insurance and no training is till the hack. A guy who can color sand may not be a pro ... in my opinion, if not the full package, then a symbol of the issues associated with this industry.



As a guy who spends a lot of money to get compliant with all the labor and regulations, all I want is a level playing field. I don’t want to go down the whole certification conversation, just sayin’ …



jim

[David Fermani]

Licensing, insurance, training & discharge has zero to do with being a Pro or a legitimate entity within the industry. I know of several Pros that don`t follow this criteria...

[Bostonsfavson]

Interesting thread, I suppose, but I think that we`re just arguing semantics here. A pro is easy to define (IMO, of course): one who is licensed, insured and does detailing for money. A "hack" is a bit more murky. I would say a hack is someone who presents themselves as a "pro" but really isn`t it. In addition, I would say that someone who does poor work, regardless of whether or not they are a "pro," would be a hack.



On a side note, Jim (Relaited), it`s nice to see you posting here without seeing the "$" symbol or the word "reclamation." There may be hope for you yet ;-)

[Bostonsfavson]

Licensing, insurance, training & discharge has zero to do with being a Pro or a legitimate entity within the industry. I know of several Pros that don`t follow this criteria...

Well, it depends on what your definition of a "pro" is. By my criteria, the people you describe above are not "pros." You seem to be defining a "pro" as someone who is very knowledgeable about detailing and does good work. While that`s an acceptable definition of a "pro" it`s not mine. Oh, what murky waters :buffing:

[David Fermani]

A pro is easy to define (IMO, of course): one who is licensed, insured and does detailing for money.

So, anyone who meets these requirements you`d allow to detail your own/a friend`s car? I`d say 99.999% of the detailers out there have these credentials.