Let`s hear from the "Hacks"

[imported_rydawg]

Listening to these stories is the reason why I personally do not do the budget jobs.



If someone is looking to only spend under a few hundred dollars for paint correction or want it back the same day, then they should not complain. I think some customers have no idea what it really takes to make some paints perfect.



I feel bad for a lot of detailers here that get stuck with a cheap customer.

[trig]

Thanks buddy!



You are right, there are some of us who work on cars for days to weeks making them perfect. We are a legal business that specializes in restoring paint to it`s fullest degree and we gaurantee our work too. We do not advertise and we have no business sign up yet neither . Rick and I are a 100% word of mouth business and are fully booked throughout the summer.



We are hoping for cancellations so we can have a few days off.

Off topic-ish, but this is my dream goal for my own business (even if it ends up not being detailing). I have a website but have not really given it out. I have no business cards, and not too much business, but I find satisfaction in getting new customers because "so and so" told them about me, versus me selling my "product."

[Vintage]

[quote name=`Jakerooni`]I asked him if remembered what packaged he insisted on. I asked is it washed? - Yep is it waxed? - yep did we vacuum the carpets? - yes but they are still stained up. So I inform him this was exactly why I recommended the actual detailing package I did to take care of that stuff. I said you paid us $35 for this service and you`re wanting a $125 service for the $35?? Then I told him to bring it on back I would personally hit with the carpet extractor to get this taken care of better... His response... I can`t I already turned the truck in and got a new car. I just want my money back. In which I said I`ll have it here waiting for you and sorry about your experience. ($35 isn`t enough for me to worry about if it keeps him happy enough to not go around blasting we were hacks because he got a lesser service than needed to get the results he was actaully after)

QUOTE]

That sux for you Jake. You had full right to tell him to get lost but you gave his $35 back. My hat`s off to you. You went above and beyond being professional. Hopefully he atleast tells his neighbor about how you corrected a potentially bad experience for him.

[imported_Jakerooni]

That was actually the incident that made me double think my whole process of educating the customer. This was obviously a customer that wasn`t educated in what it was we actaully do. Even after explaining what it was that I thought would be needed he obviously still didn`t get it. Although he was happy when he picked it up. It was only after his neighbor came over and pointed out all the "Issues" still. Which in my mind just tells me they have a "1 uping each other" thing going on. I can just see the conversation of him bragging about good his "Detailed" truck looked. I found it funny that I got the call after he already turned the truck in so there was no possible way for me to correct it anyways. But like I said $35 just isn`t worth it to me to risk it. Even if I was in the right or not. But it opened my eye. It`s also why my site has more information than I`ve seen on most other sites just so people can understand why it is we charge more than others in the area. Seems to work for me.

[Less]

Hopefully he atleast tells his neighbor about how you corrected a potentially bad experience for him.

Doubtful,



I`ll bet anything he went and told his neighbor how you tried to screw him and how he "straightened out that crooked detailer"



Which is exactly why I personally WOULDN`T give him his money back. Regardless of why you actually did it, from his perspective it looks like you`re admitting guilt. And in a business that relies so heavily on word-of-mouth advertising, that might be kind of dangerous.

[frostydog]

First off...great thread!! What a refreshing topic.



I`m not a pro, but a hobbyist with an over active entrepreneurial train of thought, so I couldn`t help but give much thought over the years on how best to make a profit doing this (detailing).

There is room for everybody in this business, from the hacks to the 5 day detailers. There is clearly a market at both ends. I just don`t get why you challenge the "professionalism" of some of the high-end guys who clearly have valid businesses doing that. If you don`t think there is a business saving high-end cars from a repaint, then you are just dismissing guys like RickRack, Rydawg, ebpcivicsi, gmblack3a, the shop were Totolandmach works, and I`m sure many others I`ve missed.

Setec, I think you misread/misunderstood Relaited`s post. In no way do I think Relaited is challenging the professionalism of guys like Rydawg; nor questioning that a market exist for multiple day details.



I do think his post makes some good points, was well written and brings into the equation a variable that is sometimes taboo, or at least rarely discussed here at Autopia. Making profit or even better making the most profit possible.



Who`s the better Autopian??



Assuming both scenarios have acceptable customer ratings, grow their businesses, operate ethically, etc, etc, etc...



1. The detailer who spends 5 days getting 1 car 100% perfect and at the end of the week has a 20% profit margin.



2. The detailer who spends 5 days doing satisfactory "expected" work on 10 cars and at the end of the week has a 30% profit margin.



Is detailer #2 a hack?



Or, what if the profit %`s were switched for the two scenarios above??

[imported_rydawg]

Off topic-ish, but this is my dream goal for my own business (even if it ends up not being detailing). I have a website but have not really given it out. I have no business cards, and not too much business, but I find satisfaction in getting new customers because "so and so" told them about me, versus me selling my "product."

Word of mouth is your best source and let your work scream quality and take the time to teach your customer things while building a relationship with them.



I think too many people focus on the price wars and who is the cheapest or focus on only the people who live in the same small town.



When I restarted my business a few years ago after a long break, I only wanted to focus on the enthusiests who already had clean immaculate cars that wanted the paint brought to the max level of perfection. Fast forward three years later, I now have people driving hours just to have me do their car.



Now Rickrack and I teamed up again and we put all of our customers together and we are just swamped.



But we work our butts off non stop and somedays we are at the shop till 1AM.

[Less]

Who`s the better Autopian??



Assuming both scenarios have acceptable customer ratings, grow their businesses, operate ethically, etc, etc, etc...



1. The detailer who spends 5 days getting 1 car 100% perfect and at the end of the week has a 20% profit margin.



2. The detailer who spends 5 days doing satisfactory "expected" work on 10 cars and at the end of the week has a 30% profit margin.



Or, what if the profit %`s were switched for the two scenarios above??

Who is the better Autopian? Neither. According to the information given, both detailers accepted a job, and applied to proper process/product to acheive the desired results, and all customers were happy. they are both successful autopians.



Which is more profitable? that`s a different question.



That question can`t really be answered with the information given. We need to know how much each detailer is charging. But let`s assume that detailer #2 is charging $200 bucks per car. That`s probably about average for a 1/2 day detail that isn`t trying to make a car 100% perfect.



So at the end of the week, Detailer #2 has revenues of $2,000 and a profit of $600 (30%). So, for detailer #1 to make the same money on one car at a 20% margin, he would have to charge $3,000.

[Less]

Continuing my response to frostydog,



Which is the better business man?



It`s detailer #2 because he is operating at a higher profit margin.



Detailer #1 is in a different market that requires more marketing and business development to keep the business growing. Yet he hasn`t passed those costs onto the customer, and thus operates at a lower margin. He`s working harder for the same money.



the whole point of starting this thread was to illustrate the fallicy that exists when a customer expects Detailer #1`s services at Detailer #2`s prices.



The result is a post on here where the customer discredits Detailer #2 and labels him as a "hack". And what frustrates me is how people on this board will egg him on and talk about how bad Detailer #2`s work is.



That`s why I started this thread. I just wanted to open up the discussion about different `levels` of detailing.

[frostydog]

Who is the better Autopian? Neither. According to the information given, both detailers accepted a job, and applied to proper process/product to acheive the desired results, and all customers were happy. they are both successful autopians.



Which is more profitable? that`s a different question.



That question can`t really be answered with the information given. We need to know how much each detailer is charging. But let`s assume that detailer #2 is charging $200 bucks per car. That`s probably about average for a 1/2 day detail that isn`t trying to make a car 100% perfect.



So at the end of the week, Detailer #2 has revenues of $2,000 and a profit of $600 (30%). So, for detailer #1 to make the same money on one car at a 20% margin, he would have to charge $3,000.

Exactly, that was kind of my point. Though, admittedly, I should have also stated... assume the same sales $`s for both. Net/Net at the end of the day assume detailer #2 is making more $`s.



Is he a hack?? :nixweiss



Is a true autopian only one that can make profit while delivering 100% perfection results?



I *think* this was the path Relaited was going down, though I could totally be wrong.

[frostydog]

Continuing my response to frostydog,



Which is the better business man?



It`s detailer #2 because he is operating at a higher profit margin.



Detailer #1 is in a different market that requires more marketing and business development to keep the business growing. Yet he hasn`t passed those costs onto the customer, and thus operates at a lower margin. He`s working harder for the same money.



the whole point of starting this thread was to illustrate the fallicy that exists when a customer expects Detailer #1`s services at Detailer #2`s prices.



The result is a post on here where the customer discredits Detailer #2 and labels him as a "hack". And what frustrates me is how people on this board will egg him on and talk about how bad Detailer #2`s work is.



That`s why I started this thread. I just wanted to open up the discussion about different `levels` of detailing.

Yup...I agree with you 100%.

I guess my posts were poorly written.

[imported_weekendwarrior]

Unless one can verify a $1,200 ticket average, I question the business acumen, not the quality of end result. That is where I challenge the "professionalism", as getting $400, let`s say for a 2 day job is more of an enthusiast.



In my opinion.



-jim

See - I think you assume that most pros on this site are only getting $400-$500 for a 2 day job. I can tell you that is not the case.



I completely see the need and desire for your business for a lot of consumers. I am not knocking the job you do, for the clients in which you do it. However, I think you neglect to see a lot of how "our side" works. Case in point...



There are a lot of exotic car owners that start noticing the swirls and scratches in their vehicles, and are told the only way to fix them is to temporarily fill them with filler products, or repaint the car. For a lot of these guys, they don`t want to use fillers, they want the swirls and scratches gone. They then find out, a) a repaint is expensive on an exotic, and b) a repaint can depreciate the vehicle. Suddenly spending over $1000 is no big deal to them.



Additionally, I have spoken with clients that have show cars, and have discovered sites like this. They then start noticing defects on their cars, and are willing to pay whatever to make their baby "perfect".



You are correct that it is all about expectations. If a client only expects "clean and shiny" and has a $200 budget, anything beyond 3-4 man hours is ridiculous. However, if a client wants perfection and is willing to pay for it, then 2 days is no big deal. If you want to assume that everyone that spends 2 days on a car is working for peanuts, then none of us are going to be able to convince you otherwise. Believe what you will.

[imported_Picus]

I think most guys on this site charge based on an hourly rate if they are doing 2+ days jobs. I know I do. My hourly rate is the same for everyone. If I work on a car for two days straight, the bill is usually somewhere in the $1000-$1200 range.



Will I do a $300 job? Of course I will; I do them all the time and I do my damnedest to get the best result for the customer with that budget, but again it`s all based on an hourly rate.



We`ve had this discussion before. The only way to determine your "profit" is to work out how much you`re making per man hour (per person, if you have more than one person working on the car), which includes travel etc.

[RaskyR1]

IMO a hack is a person doing sloppy/poor work. I don`t think price has anything to do with it.





If there is polish sling on the windows, in the cracks, or on the trim, you might be a hack!



If you applied tire dressing with a sprayer on a windy day and didn`t notice all the silicone specs on the paint...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the windows and neglected to clean the sunroof, rear view mirror, or vanity mirrors...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the engine with a strong degreaser and stained the paint on the fenders...you might be a hack!



I you burned the rubber trim on a car (Lambo) because you didn`t tape them off...you might be a hack!



If you took a rotary buffer to a black car and delivered it to the customers with more swirls than a toilet bowl...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned a customer’s interior and they find pop cans and candy under the seat...you might be a hack!











We all have to start somewhere, but poor work is poor work.

[imported_Jakerooni]

I will add to rasky`s definition a little. If you do sloppy work KNOWING you`re doing sloppy, less than on par, work and still wanting to charge pro level prices then yes your a hack. I figure someone taught us all. Some of us we`re taught right. Others were not. But how do you know if you were taught right or taugh wrong if the way you do things is the only way you`ve ever known??? most "Hacks" have no clue they are hacks. They`ll obviously never admit it because they honestly think the way they are doing it is THE only right way to do it. remember for 99% of the customers out there as long as the car is clean and shiney when the pick it up is all that matters. Having swirls come back a week later is usually something that dosen`t get brought up to often so the detailer never thinks they need to improved because they filled those swirls in nice and pretty like.