Cured paint swelling?

[imported_Detailing Technology]

I was just reading about Menzerna polishes on the Optimum forum, and this came up.





"I`ve seen a few threads on other forums where people have stated that swirls came back after using Menzerna but that it was flawless when they had finished. So it`s possible that it may temporarily swell paint. If I find out more I`ll be sure to post it up."





I have a bit of experience painting cars in a previous life. I have left basecoat in a mixing cup and watched it turn into a solid rock hard block over a 24 hour period.



I have also done the same with unused and mixed clear. The clear turns into something the consistency of a super bounce ball.





My first question:



- After-market clear has 3 parts, clear, reducer, hardener, and sometimes a flex additive for urethane bumpers. Is it possible to topically apply a chemical that could have a temporary positive effect that would "swell" the surface to make it appear "level"?





My next question:



- Factory applied clear coatings are different than those we can buy in the local auto body supply store. Could something like this work equally on both out of the same bottle?







Any thoughts or observations?

[imported_Detailing Technology]

One thing that does strike me as interesting the the number of Menzerna formulas.



The Nano specific chemicals?



I also dont see them as geared towards detailers, but more of a body shop product.

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Any thoughts on the possibility or science in this theory?



Extremely interesting if A) it is possible and how can you make it last or put it in a spray bottle like a quick detailer.



Anyone else see this?

[BigJimZ28]

a.) the whole topic of menzerna "filling" has be beat to death

and that is what I think they are going through





b.) if a something like brake fluid can just eat throught paint

I see no reason whay some other chemicals could not temp. soften the paint

[imported_Detailing Technology]

I didnt read it as a "filling" proposition. I read a "swelling" to close defects..



Personally, I think its a backhanded shot at Menzernas filling properties. But I`m not a chemist or a sprayble coatings scientist and cant authoritatively comment.

[Todd@RUPES]

Yes cured paint does swell.



If you place your car in the sun, the metal will expand. If the paint didn`t stretch or expand as well it would crack. Measure your paint in microns in freezing cold weather, then measure it when it is hot to the touch. I have seen as much as a 2 micro difference, fwiw.



Jason Rose explained paint swelling to me like this... Take the skin on the back of your hand (by your wrist) and pull it apart. The wrinkles disappear until you release your skin. It isn`t so much that the paint `swell`s closed, as that the sharp edges that create visible marring are pulled apart (we are talking near microscopic levels of swelling) and the edges become rounded, thus invisible.

[Scottwax]

I find that after polishing, letting the car sit in the full sun to heat up the paint shows you everything you missed. I guess as the body of the car heats up, the paint has to stretch or swell to match what the metal is doing underneath.

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Yes cured paint does swell.



Measure your paint in microns in freezing cold weather, then measure it when it is hot to the touch. I have seen as much as a 2 micro difference, fwiw.



thus invisible.

Here are the key points I picked up:



Paint is flexible. The logical fact that metals expanding and conracting through exposure to temperature extremes does makes some sense. I can see clear flexing, but not primer. At only the microscopic level, I`d believe it does.



Invisible - primary key to this discussion.



Is it possible to topically induce clearcoat swelling with a solution that wont cause long term damage or thinning of the finish? When polishing, we do heat the surface up rapidly with the friction from the pads. Im sure this adds to the net effect. But then this would apply to all brands of polishes, not just Menzerna.



The next question is, how does this swelling result in a swirl free finish? Why wouldnt it also increase the size of the swirls?



Todd - Now that you wrote this, I expect a bunch of people to now use their digital paint guages in polar climate-extremes prior to polishing to ensure a sufficient level of clear remains on the vehicles surface post-correction under all potential future circumstances.

(We will see picutres of people measuring paint in snow, then at the beach before starting to work):kewlpics

[David Fermani]

I expect a bunch of people to now use their digital paint guages in polar climate-extremes prior to polishing to ensure a sufficient level of clear remains on the vehicles surface post-correction under all potential future circumstances.

(We will see picutres of people measuring paint in snow, then at the beach before starting to work):kewlpics

I wouldn`t doubt that 1 bit. I get a kick out of seeing Click N Brags from certain detailers taking pictures of high tech paint readings when they`re only using a finishing polish. Makes you think they have more money than sense.....

[Todd@RUPES]

But then this would apply to all brands of polishes, not just Menzerna.



The next question is, how does this swelling result in a swirl free finish? Why wouldnt it also increase the size of the swirls?

My belief (or guess) is that it applies to all products that contain some level of solvent, which is the overwhelming majority of paint polishes today. Combine this with the fact you are inducing topical heat (heating the paint from the outside in) and forcing these solvents into the paint.



As far as swelling reducing the appearance of swirls, I refer back to the example Jason Rose shared with me. If you take your wrinkled skin and pull it away from each other, the wrinkles appear to disappear. IE sharp edges that are visible become invisible, if that makes sense.



In the end this is only theory of course, but I have had far too many people that I trust are far more intellengent then myself paint this exact picture.

[Todd@RUPES]

I find that after polishing, letting the car sit in the full sun to heat up the paint shows you everything you missed. I guess as the body of the car heats up, the paint has to stretch or swell to match what the metal is doing underneath.

Rich Light from Gloss-It has told me does something similar with a heat gun. They `flash` the surface with heat which can make a large number of the defects return by removing surface oil.



So that leads to the question, is it the heat (which can actually make defects reappear) or the solvents, or a combination of both?

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Rich Light from Gloss-It has told me does something similar with a heat gun. They `flash` the surface with heat which can make a large number of the defects return by removing surface oil.



So that leads to the question, is it the heat (which can actually make defects reappear) or the solvents, or a combination of both?

Im interested in how he flashes an entire car with heat. I can see doing it in an oven or portable infrared lamps we used to use when flashing primer.





Interesting perspective is that the heat opens the defects and fillers get pressed into in the affected areas by the pads. When the surface cools the defects close and the filler remains, potentially secured into the finish? - ohh, sounds like the next marketing line for an up and coming Chemical guys re-lable..





Lets bet on a combo of both. I remember polishing back in the Imron days. We used to stand on the paint with 8" twisted wool to make it hot and "flow" as the painters would say. Fillers are nice to hide and give a good appearance to those who cant polish out defect free. I am sure there are some manufacturers out there which have fillers that are not easily removed by an IPA wipedown.

[Scottwax]

So that leads to the question, is it the heat (which can actually make defects reappear) or the solvents, or a combination of both?

I wish I knew for sure. However, since I started moving cars into the sun before finishing them out, I have not had any problems with holograms or swirls coming back.



Usually once the compounding is done, I can move the car out (sometimes I am in the sun all day so the car is already out), I let it sit in the sun while I grab a quick lunch. Pretty scary sometimes what pops back up. :nervous2: