Additional Forum For Pro Detailers

[Todd@RUPES]

I guess my question is what qualifies an company/organization to determine what is professional.



I would like to see a shop manual, similar to what ASE provides, with a list of every model/vehicle/paint hardness/hours labor required. I would like to see a listing of the paint "hardness" in general for every single paint color of every single vehicle made (and I would like exacting methods used to measure paint hardness).



I would like to see a national advertising campaign geared at increasing the awarness of properly trained detailers.



I would like to see high standards set and held.



I would like to scientific research explaining the processes of paint removal, and why certain abrasives work with certain paints. I would like to see small areas such as pad abrasision on the paint fully researched.



I would like unbiased scientific research in leather care, vinyl care, fabric care, etc...



I would basically like answers to questions that only a few of us are asking.



At this point, I would consider an association a benefit to my business, and would consider paying a fee.

[dixieF150scab]

[quote=JoshVette]

David, I totally see your point, but think of it this way.... you are a specialist when it comes to detailing and have much experience which is not discredited, but if you do not detail as a profession then you, by definition, are not a professional detailer.



I said what I said based on what the word "professional" is defined as according to Webster. I would not discredit a retired, very experienced detailer`s advise, but if detailing is not one`s form of income and lively hood, then it`s not their profession, just their specialty.



Look up the word "Professional" in the dictionary.

Respectfully, there are any number of trade associations for any number of "professions". Go to a local mechanic and he likely belongs to one. It means little. The really good mechanics are singled out by word of mouth and no one gives their association relationship a second thought.



Want a better example? Doctors. They have cans of alphabet soup behind their names and no one gives a damn. Does he do a good job of caring for patients or does he kill or maim them? That is what determines the seating occupancy of his waiting room.

The problem is there`s plenty of hacks and high volume "detailers/wash and waxers" out there doing this as their living and there`s no real standard by which to measure detailing due to the fact that the goal for "most" is to please the client by making there car shiny on the outside and clean on the inside, most owners don`t know the difference between quality work and a good wipe down with a rag which makes the standard of excellence more difficult to define.

..........and the goal to please the customer is somehow a bad thing? You have to remember that what pleases most customers equates to what they are willing to pay for.

So if "results" are the standard then the owners define "quality" based on whether or not they are satified with the car afterwards, but if "quality" is defined by technique, process, thoroughness and ultimately perfection of the paint, interior and all other aspects of the car then the detailer is the one who defines it.....

Quality is the amount of performance a customer is willing to pay for, and that goes for anything, be it a vehicle, a toaster, a detail, etc. The detailer who puts in a little extra and really shows concern about the care and maintenance of the client vehicle will have his name circulated far and wide, and no "professional" association certification will amount to a hill of beans.



In the end, most such associations end up serving their own agendas and care more for their own posterity than anything else.

[dixieF150scab]

I guess my question is what qualifies an company/organization to determine what is professional.



I would like to see a shop manual, similar to what ASE provides, with a list of every model/vehicle/paint hardness/hours labor required. I would like to see a listing of the paint "hardness" in general for every single paint color of every single vehicle made (and I would like exacting methods used to measure paint hardness).



I would like to see a national advertising campaign geared at increasing the awarness of properly trained detailers.



I would like to see high standards set and held.



I would like to scientific research explaining the processes of paint removal, and why certain abrasives work with certain paints. I would like to see small areas such as pad abrasision on the paint fully researched.



I would like unbiased scientific research in leather care, vinyl care, fabric care, etc...



I would basically like answers to questions that only a few of us are asking.



At this point, I would consider an association a benefit to my business, and would consider paying a fee.

What you`ll see is corporate sponsorship of the association determining what products are "best", what techniques are "best", and so on, all determined by the highest bidder.

Souls will be for sale, as they always are when money is involved.



Be a quality detailer and be proud of it. The customer base will find you.



This whole idea is just like asking for bigger government. Why pay for diminishing returns?

[dixieF150scab]

This to me is an idiotic statement. So basically if I don`t do this 9-5 full time then I am not "professional" in your eyes??? Get real...I use this as a way to supplement my income and I have a great time doing it. Just because I don`t log the amount of man hours doesn`t mean I am any less of a caliber of a detailer than others out there. If I`m not a professional then what am I?? An "Amateur",



The Webster definition is irrelevant.



I see the reasoning you are trying to put out there but your statements make no sense.

Dead on. The passion for the specialty determines the caliber of the detail, and thus the customer base of the detailer. I have more passion for this than just about anything else, and I still consider myself an amateur. Not because I don`t do it full time, but because I see so much more to learn and so much more room for perfection.

This attitude keeps me honest, it keeps me humble, and I don`t need an association to do that for me.

My customers wouldn`t give a rat`s *** if I had an association decal on my window or not.



This whole idea sounds like a yearning for respect for the skill from society at large.



Forget about it. Your customers show their respect for you with their wallets and by returning again and again. No association will assist in that regard.



Free your mind and your *** will follow.

[David Fermani]

Respectfully, there are any number of trade associations for any number of "professions". Go to a local mechanic and he likely belongs to one. It means little. The really good mechanics are singled out by word of mouth and no one gives their association relationship a second thought.

In the auto repair & insurance business, being I-CAR *and/or* ASE certified means alot to employers. It has a direct impact on your hourly rate/salery. I`m sure the general public doesn`t search for shops or techs that are in this association, and I don`t think people will do that for detailing unless it`s marketed heavily. I think if the NAPRD pitched sponsorship to corporations who advertise on TV/Radio along with other their auto related products & services it would help out greatly. Imagine how much a TV ad could help if it aired during NASCAR, or any of the other programs on the SPEED channel?

[Scottwax]

Be a quality detailer and be proud of it. The customer base will find you.

Exactly right. While a certification process would be good to set an industry standard, I can`t see that it would affect my business one way or another. The best I could hope for is a better image for detailing in general.

[brwill2005]

We are talking about auto detailing here, and not the medical profession. A mistake or lack of knowledge is not going to cost someone their life. Most people could care less whether or not a detailer is certified by an organization. What people are looking for is a detailer who conducts their self in a professional manner and offers a valuable service; what ever that service may be. Lets also remember that many of the services offered by detailers differ. That is fine, and is all part of being in business. No detailer should be forced to do their process a certain way or provide a pre-determined set of services. The image of detailers has been tarnished for many years. This is something we can not fix overnight or with an association. An association can definitely help if it is done right though. What we need, is for every professional detailer to conduct themselves with the utmost professionalism and raise the bar across the board.

[dixieF150scab]

Exactly right. While a certification process would be good to set an industry standard, I can`t see that it would affect my business one way or another. The best I could hope for is a better image for detailing in general.

.........as used car salesmen hope for a better image.

.........as lawyers hope for a better image.

.........as any number of "professions" hope for a better image.



They`ve all got their clubs and associations, but what determines the image of any profession is the business practices that they become known for, said clubs and associations notwithstanding.



You`re dead on, Sir.



.............and I might add that, while I believe that you hand-detailed for years, an association would have, eventually, pressured you to take up the machine process whether you wanted to or not.



Why?



Corporate sponsorship. It wouldn`t have "looked good" for a detailer of you stature and reputation not to be using a Dewalt, PC, or some other machine.

[dixieF150scab]

[quote=David Fermani]

In the auto repair & insurance business, being I-CAR *and/or* ASE certified means alot to employers. It has a direct impact on your hourly rate/salery. I`m sure the general public doesn`t search for shops or techs that are in this association, and I don`t think people will do that for detailing unless it`s marketed heavily.

You are correct in that folks seldom search out mechanics, or auto repair technicians as they`ve come to be known by virtue of their associations, because of their membership in I-CAR or ASE. They want their vehicles repaired quickly, correctly, and at the best price possible.



Here`s the ASE-Certified Technician`s Code of Ethics:



1. I will strive to produce nothing but first-class workmanship.

2. I will take advantage of every opportunity to increase my knowledge/skills concerning the work I am doing. I will dedicate myself to lifelong learning.

3. I will use only those materials that are proven to be safe and recommended by the manufacturer.

4. I will recommend to an owner only that work on the vehicle which I believe to be necessary.

5. I will treat an owner`s vehicle as I would my own.

6. I will attempt to correct any honest mistake made by another technician, without damaging the reputation of that person or their business.

7. I will conduct myself so as to maintain and increase the public respect for all ASE-certified technicians.

8. I will practice Service Integrity, which means that to the best of my ability I will always work for the best interest of the owner, my employer and myself.



While most ASE certified technicians probably come close to adhering to this code, there any number who do not, and there is no way for me to tell which ones do not. Thus the certification is an empty shell in that regard, which was the original impetus for the creation of the organization in the first place.



........and on that note, take a look at tenet #3. Materials........recommended by the manufacturer. Wonder how that got in there?



So, if a tech puts Autolite plugs in my Ford rather than Motorcraft, do we have a moral dilemma on our hands?



Let the customer rule. If I want cheap, I go Autolite. If I want better OEM parts, I go Motorcraft.



My vehicle. My wallet. My decision. Thanks ASE.

I think if the NAPRD pitched sponsorship to corporations who advertise on TV/Radio along with other their auto related products & services it would help out greatly. Imagine how much a TV ad could help if it aired during NASCAR, or any of the other programs on the SPEED channel?

I-CAR events are chock full of corporate sponsors, and they don`t lay out that cash for nothing. They expect a return in some form.



How often have you gotten really ticked off at the amount of advertising shown while trying to enjoy a game, race, or other program? There any number of people, myself included, who will go out of their way NOT to patronize the products of a company that deems it necessary to invade my living room and bombard me with their commercials. I don`t want to pay higher prices for their products to subsidize their ad campaigns. Additionally, I have satellite television. That medium was touted as a subscription-based, no-commercial alternative to broadcast television in the beginning. Now, I`m paying monthly rates and still suffering through commercials.



McDonald`s knows that I know who they are and what they sell. So why bother advertising? Because they want the ad to reach me on my recliner, find me hungry, and somehow cause me to dislodge myself and run on down to one of their establishments. They`re insulting my intelligence by attempting to snare me into an impulse purchase.



No thanks.



Besides, most folks go to the bathroom or kitchen during commercial breaks. After all, that`s what commercials are for, right?



So much for a TV ad and marketing in general.

[dixieF150scab]

I agree, but most 90% of clients don`t have the first clue about quality detailing. It`s extremely easy to please the customers and not perform quality work, hacks do it all the time and many clients swear they are the best.....so why do they get so much repeat business if they do not have quality skills....

Wow! What a statement. Let`s be sure to insult our customer base. That might actually justify the creation of some association............just to repair the public relations damage.



It`s intellectually dishonest to disparage a group of clients who profess their satisfaction with a certain provider of services simply because you might view your skill set as somewhat more advanced than those of a competitor. I realize that there are those who merely wash a vehicle with poor techniques, and then proceed to apply all manner of "shiny stuff" to vehicle surfaces and market the result as "professional detailing". However, where the rubber meets the road is when those clients take more interest in the appearance of their vehicles and begin requesting defect removal and enhancements and find that their "detailer" simply can`t meet those requests. That`s what separates the men from the boys. It takes time and hard work, but if YOU can supply those customer wants at a reasonable price, they will find you in due time.



At this point, if you truly believe in your "quality skills", it is up to YOU to promote those skills and yourself as well. If you can truly point out how your services will improve the condition of a vehicle as opposed to those of the "hack", then do so.



If, however, your goal is to set yourself up with $300 details provided by a returning customer base, that base is going to be limited regardless of promotion, association, or whatever. It`s a matter of economics. You`re going to have to locate a niche market and those are few and far between.



For most folks, a vehicle detail is not something that they have to have done. It`s not like having a starter replaced by a mechanic, which is something they HAVE to have done. I realized that long ago. A good detailer is, in my opinion, somewhat OCD by nature. A loyal returning customer shares some of that trait, and those are the folks you have to target.



For most people, if it comes down to having the air conditioner repaired or having a vehicle detailed, the guy from Trane is going to win out every time.

[Setec Astronomy]

If, however, your goal is to set yourself up with $300 details provided by a returning customer base, that base is going to be limited regardless of promotion, association, or whatever. It`s a matter of economics. You`re going to have to locate a niche market and those are few and far between.



For most folks, a vehicle detail is not something that they have to have done. It`s not like having a starter replaced by a mechanic, which is something they HAVE to have done. I realized that long ago. A good detailer is, in my opinion, somewhat OCD by nature. A loyal returning customer shares some of that trait, and those are the folks you have to target.



For most people, if it comes down to having the air conditioner repaired or having a vehicle detailed, the guy from Trane is going to win out every time.

Pardon me for butting into this pro thread, since I am just an observer in this particular forum, and haven`t kept up with the entire thread, but it seems to me that this is the salient point that always comes up in these threads about certification, etc. There is always the camp that thinks that certification is the way to more business, when I would agree that the impediment to more "Autopian" details is simply that the market is limited, because most people don`t care/don`t know the difference.

[imported_JoshVette]

Wow! What a statement. Let`s be sure to insult our customer base. That might actually justify the creation of some association............just to repair the public relations damage.

Get off it already...:spit:



Ask any great, quality detailer and they`ll tell you the same thing. 90% don`t know about quality detailing, I spoke at a detailing semilar in Nov and talked briefly about Claybaring and Leaf blower drying and every single one of those "car enthusiasts" had never heard of either....



It`s not an insult, just the facts of life. 10% however I would say are very well informed.



Heck, when I used to own my Corvette, I thought I was the best at cleaning and detailing my Vette and I would take it to the car wash, then wipe it down with a cotton towel afterwards, I was hurting it worse then I was helping it, but I didn`t have a clue cause all I know is that I was making it shiny.



That`s why I hand out a 4-5 step proper car care page to all my clients now after I detail their vehicles.

[Todd@RUPES]

Very rarely do I agree with both people...this is a case in which I do... So whats the common ground?

[Scottwax]

Josh-I think his general point was to chase the 10%, not try to educate the other 90% who aren`t going to care no matter what you say.



Quality detailing is reputation driven, no assocation is going to change that. Just like the mechanic I use. There are a lot of ASE certified mechanics but this guy has a stellar reputation so he gets my business.

[dixieF150scab]

[quote=JoshVette]

Get off it already...:spit:

Get off of what? My soapbox? Nope.



I believe what you are advocating is simply wrong. I tend to believe that each individual is responsible for creating his own success at what they do, and not look to some association to do it for them.

Ask any great, quality detailer and they`ll tell you the same thing. 90% don`t know about quality detailing, I spoke at a detailing semilar in Nov and talked briefly about Claybaring and Leaf blower drying and every single one of those "car enthusiasts" had never heard of either....

........ask any quality electrician if his customers know anything about wiring. Would the ratio of informed to uninformed customers be about the same? Obviously, because otherwise the electrician wouldn`t have a job. You are overstating the obvious, otherwise there would be no need for the specialty.

It`s not an insult, just the facts of life. 10% however I would say are very well informed.

It is indeed an insult, for the customers to whom you refer are paying the note on their vehicles and can determine for themselves what level of attention they wish to pay to their vehicle`s appearance.

Heck, when I used to own my Corvette, I thought I was the best at cleaning and detailing my Vette and I would take it to the car wash, then wipe it down with a cotton towel afterwards, I was hurting it worse then I was helping it, but I didn`t have a clue cause all I know is that I was making it shiny.

.........and I`d bet a dollar against a doughnut that you learned the proper way to care for your car by way of information passed along by other detailers, much like the information one can gain on this and other forums.

That`s why I hand out a 4-5 step proper car care page to all my clients now after I detail their vehicles.

........and that is a very good, responsible thing to do. It shows that you care about your clients` vehicles. It shows that you are willing to go out of your way to help them.



AND THAT`S THE POINT!!! YOU are the one doing what you consider to be proper, and I`m sure your customers respond positively to it.



I`d opt to keep it that way, because your car care page may or may not meet an association`s criteria.