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  1. #16
    rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Just a beading pic. Donít worry Iím still investigating the TW S&S.
    Left side Premier, right side S&S


    Nice beading from all LSPs and drying was a breeze.


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  2. #17
    rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Quote Originally Posted by Loach View Post
    Yesterday I was doing the voiceover for the video when I saw your thread go up, crazy timing! The video isn`t a direct response to your results, although some of the topics I touched on will be relevant to what you`re noticing. It is a caution for any manufacturer to attempt to use a gloss meter to paint a black and white picture of performance with regards to gloss enhancement of individual products, without the viewer understanding the variables that affect measurements.

    Your older meter I`m pretty sure was in the $2000+ range when it was new, which is still a very accurate meter. I have the non-haze version of it, which was working for a while after I picked it up before it died out on me. It was a great meter too because these newer ones take more time to spit the gloss results out, the older models were practically instant readings.



    You should notice a boost in the gloss readings after the first wash with N-914. The example that I did with the heavy buffing, to me this highlights that my first post-application measurements with the meter is practically irrelevant for certain products. If a manufacturer took one of their sealants, put it up against a competing sealant known to be much heavier and ran side by side gloss testing, it would be very easy for them to paint a picture of performance that at first glance is indisputable. But the wipeability of a product in the short term does not paint a full picture of the product`s actual gloss performance.

    Another topic is take Pinnacle Souveran as a hypothetical example. I put it on the paint before a car show, and I`ve reduced the gloss based on the measurements. However, after the show the next day I go out to wash the paint and the gloss readings are back up. But to me, the paint looked better the previous day during the show. The meter tells me I`ve removed the impact of the oils left behind that may be responsible for giving Souveran its advantage in appearance subjectively. Now as a tester, what reading should I report to the viewer? The post-application reading of Souveran where the measurement was lower than the pre-wax readings, the result of which is partially dependent on how much effort I put into buffing it off the paint? Or the higher post-wash readings which no longer necessarily represents the advantages in appearance that Souveran has over other products subjectively? This is a dilemma in gloss measurement testing.
    I watched the video and didnít realize it was one of yours or I would have pmed you for assistance. I wiped both sides the same way, even with the same make of towel. I try to keep all the variables exactly the same as I never want to pass on incorrect information.

    If you are getting those number then I didnít do a good enough job of wiping the product off of the surface, which is kind of amazing to me considering the amount of wiping I did. Iíve got to give TW S&S another shot and see if I can get those GU numbers up.

    Quick question about the gloss meter. Iíve heard they go bad fairly easy, do you know why? If it does go bad will the manufacturer repair the machine? I would have loved to get the newest version, but it was way out of my cost category. I mainly wanted it for quality control during the correction phase. Using it to play with LSPs is a nice plus. I hope to redo my testing of toppers and chart gloss measurements. This first comparison was a good learning experience and it gives even more importance to protect wipe off than I expected. Iím still stunned that a better wipe down might have increased the gloss level that much.

    Great video by the way.


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  3. #18
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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    I watched the video and didnít realize it was one of yours or I would have pmed you for assistance. I wiped both sides the same way, even with the same make of towel. I try to keep all the variables exactly the same as I never want to pass on incorrect information.

    If you are getting those number then I didnít do a good enough job of wiping the product off of the surface, which is kind of amazing to me considering the amount of wiping I did. Iíve got to give TW S&S another shot and see if I can get those GU numbers up.

    Quick question about the gloss meter. Iíve heard they go bad fairly easy, do you know why? If it does go bad will the manufacturer repair the machine? I would have loved to get the newest version, but it was way out of my cost category. I mainly wanted it for quality control during the correction phase. Using it to play with LSPs is a nice plus. I hope to redo my testing of toppers and chart gloss measurements. This first comparison was a good learning experience and it gives even more importance to protect wipe off than I expected. Iím still stunned that a better wipe down might have increased the gloss level that much.

    Great video by the way.


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    On your meter, as long as it`s giving consistent readings on the calibration tile, then it should be good to go. When the meter is throwing out a large range of +/- results on the calibration tile in the same test session, then this could be the result of faulty component, possibly low/dying battery or a failing bulb/lamp assembly, or dirty lens that just needs to be cleaned. Based on the calibration certificates that were included with my meters, QC teams were expected to send these out for recalibration/certification services on a yearly basis to maintain ISO/ASTM standards. One center based in Canada I believe quoted me $200USD for the service, and then an hourly fee of around $85/hr for a technician to work on services outside of the standard re-certification process, like replacing the rechargeable battery, and the cost of the parts. For the old meters, the battery is going to be the main issue since most of the ones that I`ve seen were using rechargeable batteries and these will always go bad eventually.

    One thing to be mindful of is surface temperature is going to have an impact on readings as well, the paint temperature was at 95F when I was measuring for the video and I was peaking around 96.1GU post polishing with Menzerna 3800. Come out today with surface temperatures around 81F, we`re back up to 97GU+ range with Menzerna 3800. The calibration tile should be able to account for this so long as it`s around the same temperature as the surface you`re working on when you check. But don`t be surprised to be measuring at one point during the day, and then checking later when the temperatures go up/down and all of sudden your calibration tile is spitting out a new base number, it`s likely temperature related.

    I`m definitely looking forward to your results and ongoing tests. I haven`t reached out to other product testers in terms of their gloss measurement observations, so it will be good feedback to see if you`re noticing the same or different variables that could impact the results in your own tests.
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  4. #19

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Awesome comparison and thanks for testing it out!

    My first thought was that you didn`t get all of the residue off from the SNS. Will be interesting to see the gloss reading after the first wash. Maybe even after you look at the hydrophobic properties and drying you could get the gloss reading up.

    Would a removal of the polishing oils do a better and more real gloss reading after the finishing polish? The same would be from after the first wash after the LSP gloss readings. For the longer lasting LSP that would be a benefit to take the reading after the first wash. While if you testing a show car wax or glossenhancer the gloss reading after the application would be a benefit.

    I do think that the manufactures of LSP use many different testing scenarios which gloss reading is one of them. Also that they benchmark their products against other products from other brands too. Think it was The Forensic Detailing Channel on Youtube that visited Autoglym and showed some pics from the developing division where testing where on going. And also think that they can if possible to have an ingredient in the LSP that gives you a very high gloss reading after the application. But is diminished after a wash or 2 but gives the consumer that instant higher gloss and gratification from the application. Then it`s not all about the gloss. As some can be looking better than one with a higher gloss reading. And also hard to claim which look better than the other as looks is such a personal preference and varies a lot.

    Would be intresting to see if there comes a great testing method for the YT testers to actually be testing the protection a LSP leaves behind. As against bird dropping and acid rains and water spots and UV and so on. And if the LSP actually is protecting the paint on the vehicals. Also maybe use the gloss readings after and during a torture testing. To see if they go down as on the control section. And if the gloss stays longer than the water behavior that manufactures often claims is the longevity of the product.
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  5. #20
    rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Right now my gloss meter is giving very consistent readings so I will watch out for swings in measurements. Iíll give it a wash and take new readings today. Yesterday I sprayed it with distilled water to get a beading picture and both sides dried clean and fast with a drying towel. I tried to look hard at the panel to see if my eyes could tell a difference and I thought the TW S&S had a ďdirtierĒ look to it. Thatís the only way I can describe it. I guess one very good lesson came from this comparison, ďscrub the heck out of TW S&S to get the highest gloss!Ē Lol


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  6. #21
    rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Ok, we got a sprinkle of rain last night and it dried leaving spots on all three LSPs, BUT the TW S&S had way less spotting than Premier.


    All spots came off effortlessly with a quick wash with McKees 914.


    As Loach predicted my gloss numbers jumped back to where I expected them to be.


    The IGL Premier side still was higher in GUs but not by much.


    I took several readings and they were all in the same range.

    Now if TW S&S holds on to its durability like I know IGL Premier does TW S&S should be considered the bargain of the decade. Only time will tell. I got my hopes dashed with the Motherís product, Iím not giving out my stamp of approval before it produces durability wise.

    Many thanks to Loach for the tip on washing bringing out the gloss. I was always under the impression a fresh coat of LSP was glossier than after a wash. Learn something new every day!


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  7. #22

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Is there a topper or QD to be used on the TW S&S after washes? Or just more S&S? I have dark blue paint and want that deep dark shine on the cheap!

  8. #23

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Turtle Wax Ice Spray Wax for after washes.

    They have an ice quick detailer as well.

  9. #24

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Quote Originally Posted by tul9033 View Post
    Is there a topper or QD to be used on the TW S&S after washes? Or just more S&S? I have dark blue paint and want that deep dark shine on the cheap!

    Turtle Wax Ice Spray Wax gives S&S a nice pop, but I`ve noticed that the Ice Spray Detailer gives the most pop, relatively speaking. These TW Ice products are in no way show stoppers, but they are pretty stellar performers for their price points and availability. While I go back to University, for at least this next year alone, I will be using the Ice products as they are super friendly to my wallet. For the contextually *deep dark shine on the cheap*, I would recommend a layer of the Ice Spray Wax and then a layer of the Ice Spray Detailer, and then you can maintain those top coats however you want, because they are supposedly (TW bottles) layer-able.
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  10. #25

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    TheMeanGreen- Hey, that was a good summary of the ICE products!

  11. #26

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    TheMeanGreen- Hey, that was a good summary of the ICE products!

    Here`s what the Ice products look like on my car, the photos are about 85% accurate of real life. Below the layers of S&S, Ice Spray Wax, and Ice Spray detailer, there could be layer of Carpro Essence and FK BWM 101: High-Temp Paste Wax (commonly referred to as FK1000P). I think I`ve killed off the FK1000P at the start of the summer (applied in March), and maybe the Essence. However when I do my decon washes, I am still left with hydrophobic water behavior, I just apply the next product over the last until the car gets polished next. A quick polish usually happens once every year and a half. Nonetheless, these Ice products are decent, many pro`s and con`s, but the pro`s slightly out weigh the con`s.






    To bring the discussion back to topic, the claims that the S&S can reduce gloss possibly due to being relatively thick, I would agree. It wasn`t until the additional layers of Ice Spray Wax and Ice Detailer that the gloss started to come back (all without washing the car to reset the S&S).
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  12. #27
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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    This is a great thread, thanks to all. Keep the updates coming, RLM!

  13. #28

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    TheMeanGreen- TBH, internet pix seldom tell me anything other than "yep, another nice pic of a well-detailed car" (and yours sure does look swell! The tires, of all things, really impressed me, some Michelins can be problematic IME). But with a black car in that kind of shape I bet you do notice tiny diffs IRL and I`ll happily take your (emphasis on "your" ) word for how everything worked out.

    Of course what I noted was that the FK didn`t last as long as I would`ve expected/hoped, but anyhow...

    Does the diminished gloss actually "make the car look worse" or, at least on black, does it make things look *better* in that "depth/jetting instead of just brightly glossy" type of way?

  14. #29
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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    Does the diminished gloss actually "make the car look worse" or, at least on black, does it make things look *better* in that "depth/jetting instead of just brightly glossy" type of way?
    This is exactly right. Carnauba tends to reduce gloss but no doubt it adds that depth. Some black paints also look great with the high gloss shiny look. There’s more than a few ways to skin a ca... er, make a car look good.

  15. #30

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    Re: Turtle Wax Seal and Shine vs IGL Premier

    acuRAS82- IME that can be a genuine concern even with seemingly similar LSPs, so I wondered if it`d work out that way with the ICE products/

    Like...P21s and Souveran didn`t seem like they`d be *that* different, but the former looked *WAY* too bright/reflective/etc. on my Jag, had to strip it off (and I`ve only done that a few times in my life). This "little difference" factor is why I never cared for the signature look of Zaino even though I`m OK with FK1000P (even on dark colors, didn`t expect to like that). Sometimes "less shiny" is indeed a feature, well..at least to my eyes.
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