Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

My brother-in-law stated his newer 2017Chyrsler Pacifica 3.7L PentistarV6 engine required the use a full-synthetic extended-mileage 0W-20 oil. I looked on the bottle of Mobil1 he bought and sure enough, it stated that it was for engines made in 2015 and later.

Is there a new oil spec for this, OR is this just because vehicle manufacturer`s are permitting seemingly longer engine oil-change intervals now and the ONLY way to "guarantee" (AKA, new car warranty) that is to use an extended-mileage synthetic oil.

I understand the "water-thin" 0W-20 part is needed to get the gas mileage out of engines via the reduced viscosity. But I am more concerned that this new requirement is needed to take care of the "Auto Engine Shut-off at Stop and Re-Start" feature, again, engineered to meet government fuel economy standards for newer vehicles. Most engine wear takes place at start-up, especially when cold. My brother-in-law HATES this feature, and apparently, there is no way to turn off or deactivate this "Engine-Stop-Start" feature and his concerns about engine wear and starter wear, I believe, are well founded.

Any thoughts about the extended-mileage oil requirement and its relationship to the engine Stop-Start feature??

I`m not familiar with what Chrysler is doing but I just checked the maint. info on another brand with start-stop and they don`t say anything about "extended-mileage", only 0W-20 SN.

Lonnie, I`m no help, but you might find the answer on Bob is the Oil Guy forums (sorta the Autopia of engine oils).

Good luck

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Originally Posted by nickclark08

Lonnie, I`m no help, but you might find the answer on Bob is the Oil Guy forums..

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That :D

Mostly in the name of epa and cafe. 0w20 can squeeze a small % of fuel economy out of engines speced for them. They design and build them for that thin oil. Longer drain intervals show lower cost of ownership

And it’s a 3.6 Pentastar engine




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It might be a healthy dose of marketing on Mobil 1`s part.

My wife`s Toyota Highlander uses 0w20 oil as well and that generation of vehicle first went into production in 2007.

Oil companies often get certifications from manufacturers to show their oil meets requirements for use in the aftermarket and at dealerships. Maybe the new certifications for that weight of Mobil1 weren`t around until 2015? All the automakers update their standards over time. Of course all the older ones are still valid as well.

Is 2015 when the newest dexos testing came out ? Could be that as well or it could be when SN plus came out and the vehicles that require it

I’m not aware of main stream OEs using Mobil 1. Just off the top of my head AMG, Porsche, and corvette. Probably more but not like a Chrysler Pacifica or Ford Ecosport is coming with it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for your responses .
My bad about the engine displacement of 3.7L, as MattPersman pointed out it is a Pentastar 3.6L.

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Originally Posted by MattPersman

I’m not aware of main stream OEs using Mobil 1. Just off the top of my head AMG, Porsche, and corvette.

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I dunno, I have a GM high-feature 3.6 that had Mobil 1 factory fill, I presume they all did, at that time.

https://www.autogeekonline.net/galle...335_resize.JPG

Even if the OE slaps a label on the filler cap or calls out one specific brand that doesn`t mean it`s the only option available. Many oil companies pay good money to get certified to a certain standard by the OE`s like BMW`s LL-0X, or VW`s 50X.XX standards and they will renew them periodically when the OE`s standards change. This allows the oil to be use without causing any waranty issues.

Since dealerships buy oil in bulk, you`d be surprised by what they might be using. I know BMW dealerships used to use Mobil 1 and Castrol in the US. My VW has a Castrol label on the filler cap, but they use other brands based on price. My last oil change recieved Havoline synthetic. The particular version they used carries the VW 502.00 certification or newer required by my car, so it isn`t a big deal.

I don`t know what we`re talking about anymore...I think I posted earlier in the thread that GM gets free factory-fill oil by letting Mobil put "Mobil 1" on the filler cap. Of course there are plenty of synthetic oils that meet the spec that GM calls out in the manual, I only posted that picture because a previous poster doubted that "mainstream OE`s" were using Mobil 1...of course my car is old, who knows what they are doing now.

The only thing that Start/Stop Feature does really well is wear out your starter motor and battery quicker.. And then, your Alternator has to run more often at full charge to keep that Battery charged up.. Of course, if you don`t keep the vehicle long, this will never be an issue for you..

I would like to see studies in years that show how much $$ was actually "saved" with this Feature on, and then compare that number to the cost of replacing starter motors and batteries more often..
Dan F

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Originally Posted by Stokdgs

The only thing that Start/Stop Feature does really well is wear out your starter motor and battery quicker.. And then, your Alternator has to run more often at full charge to keep that Battery charged up.. Of course, if you don`t keep the vehicle long, this will never be an issue for you..

I would like to see studies in years that show how much $$ was actually "saved" with this Feature on, and then compare that number to the cost of replacing starter motors and batteries more often..
Dan F

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Typical American corporate answer to a Federal Mandate to meet EPA gas mileage requirement. Yes, there is no doubt that gas mileage is improved, BUT as you point out Stokdgs, the "hidden cost" is in the wear-and-tear on the engine starter and electrical system to the owner down the road. So I spend $800.00 to get that system replaced every 5-years, but save $350 in fuel over that time (60,000 miles of driving based on an industry consumer travel average of 12,000 per year) to gain 0.35 mile per gallon over the same vehicle without that feature.

Kind of like the math I went though with my wife on buying a 3-year-old used larger AWD sedan (Ford Taurus) versus a used Subaru Outback with the same odometer miles, but it cost $5,500 more (The Subby is what I wanted to buy!). When you factor in the extra payment cost on a loan over 3-years on the $5,500, I can buy buy an AWFUL lot of gas for the difference, even though the Subaru got 10 more miles per gallon based on about $3.00 per gallon. Here`s how:
At 1,000 miles per month, the Subaru with its 34 MPG would cost $88.24 per month , based on $3.00 per gallon of gasoline.
The Taurus with its 24 MPG would cost $125.00 per month, based again $3.00 per gallon. The difference is $36.76 per month.
The car loan payment on $5,500 (the excess purchase price of the Subaru over the Taurus) over 36 months at 3.00 % is $159.95 per month. Based on the difference between the loan payment and the gas cost difference ($159.95 -$36.76), the difference of $123.19 will buy 41.06 gallons of gas @ $3.00/gal, and at 24 MPG, the Taurus can travel an extra 985.52 miles per month over the Subaru, all things (costs) being considered.
Penny wise and pound foolish. What looks like it has a better MPG performance, but cost more to purchase and hence has a higher loan payment per month, are you REALLY saving?? Numbers do not lie.

Yes, I KNOW the Subaru will retain its value MUCH,MUCH better 3 years from now over the Taurus, especially if (or more likely when and not too far in the future, if the next elected government officials have their way) gas gets to $5.00 per gallon, so yes I admit, there are extenuating and important economic factors to consider.

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Originally Posted by Desertnate

Even if the OE slaps a label on the filler cap or calls out one specific brand that doesn`t mean it`s the only option available. Many oil companies pay good money to get certified to a certain standard by the OE`s like BMW`s LL-0X, or VW`s 50X.XX standards and they will renew them periodically when the OE`s standards change. This allows the oil to be use without causing any waranty issues.

Since dealerships buy oil in bulk, you`d be surprised by what they might be using. I know BMW dealerships used to use Mobil 1 and Castrol in the US. My VW has a Castrol label on the filler cap, but they use other brands based on price. My last oil change recieved Havoline synthetic. The particular version they used carries the VW 502.00 certification or newer required by my car, so it isn`t a big deal.

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I’m an oil snob. I don’t trust the dealer or local grease monkey to put the correct oil in my vehicles, I buy my oil (and filter) and take it to whoever is going to install it. I also try to watch and make sure they actually use my oil that I brought and not the bulk stuff. My OCD is not limited to paint.

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Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000

I’m an oil snob. I don’t trust the dealer or local grease monkey to put the correct oil in my vehicles, I buy my oil (and filter) and take it to whoever is going to install it. I also try to watch and make sure they actually use my oil that I brought and not the bulk stuff. My OCD is not limited to paint.

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You are are not the only one who doesn`t trust those places. That`s probably what I`ll do when I can no longer change it myself.

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Originally Posted by Stokdgs

The only thing that Start/Stop Feature does really well is wear out your starter motor and battery quicker.. And then, your Alternator has to run more often at full charge to keep that Battery charged up.. Of course, if you don`t keep the vehicle long, this will never be an issue for you..

I would like to see studies in years that show how much $$ was actually "saved" with this Feature on, and then compare that number to the cost of replacing starter motors and batteries more often..

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Originally Posted by Lonnie

Typical American corporate answer to a Federal Mandate to meet EPA gas mileage requirement. Yes, there is no doubt that gas mileage is improved, BUT as you point out Stokdgs, the "hidden cost" is in the wear-and-tear on the engine starter and electrical system to the owner down the road. So I spend $800.00 to get that system replaced every 5-years, but save $350 in fuel over that time (60,000 miles of driving based on an industry consumer travel average of 12,000 per year) to gain 0.35 mile per gallon over the same vehicle without that feature.

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One of the consequences of there being less engineers and less manufacturing, is less people are exposed to engineering and manufacturing. When you decide to utilize a stop-start system, you change the specification for the vehicle, which results in design and engineering changes to meet the new specification. Here`s a Wiki article on the topic, if you scroll down to "enhanced components", you can see some of the things that are typically done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

IMO you guys aren`t giving enough credit to the engineers and designers that make these systems work, by just presuming that nothing is changed except some suit told someone to change the software so that the starter and alternator get worn out.

Setec Astronomy --
I know of a really good mechanic who writes for the Roundel Magazine, who has said many times in his hands on experiences with Bimmers Start/Stop option, that all he does is replace the parts when they wear out.. Perhaps some manufacturers will actually upgrade the parts, but if that is going to cost so much $$, well then what should they do?

This is the same Company that lengthened the miles between oil changes, because they didn`t want to keep paying for all those oil changes.. Never mind the internals are mucking around in oil that should have been changed sooner..

I will hope that all Manufacturers will actually make this better for everyone, but am not going to be holding my breath.. :)
Dan F

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Originally Posted by Stokdgs

Setec Astronomy --
I know of a really good mechanic who writes for the Roundel Magazine, who has said many times in his hands on experiences with Bimmers Start/Stop option, that all he does is replace the parts when they wear out.. Perhaps some manufacturers will actually upgrade the parts, but if that is going to cost so much $$, well then what should they do?

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Well, to channel Henny Youngman...that mechanic isn`t going to be replacing parts that aren`t worn out. There are always going to be some failures. When I used to do sales, sometimes a potential customer would ask me what I thought of a competitor`s product, and I would tell them, I hear these kind of bad things...but to be honest with them, I would say, happy customers aren`t going to be coming to me, so the only competitor customers I talk to are the unhappy ones. Just like the mechanic is only going to fix the broken cars, so from his perspective, all the cars he sees are broken, and "all he does is replace the parts when they wear out".

We`re all going to look at the glass, and some of us will see the glass as half full, and see the promise of new technologies. And some of us will see the glass as half empty, and ask why did they have to change something that worked? I`m going to look at it and say we CAN make cars with stop-start engines without wearing out the starter and alternator, and you`re going to look at it as an unfortunate idea.

My pet peeve is those darn anti-siphon valves on the outside hose faucets. They always leak! Why do I have to have one on my faucet because some numb-nuts left his pesticide spray gun hooked up and the faucet open when he lost pressure in his house and siphoned his bug spray back into his potable water supply and poisoned himself? That`s like a one-in-a-million shot, and now we all have to pay for it, so to speak.

Anyway, I thought we were making America great again, turning it back into a can-do country, instead of a can`t-do country. So I`d like to think we can do stop-start engines that work.

Setec Astronomy,
Thanks for your reply tonight !
I am all for new technologies; spent my entire working life finding the best Bandwidth technologies for the companies I worked for..

I know what you mean about anti-siphon valves ! I have one soldered on my front yard faucet, so I have to get out the tools to change that sometime when it goes out..
Have changed all 6 diaphragms of the Sprinkler System anti siphon valves over the past couple of years..

One thing I wish they had done more research on that affects everyone out here where I live, is Pex fresh water plumbing.. Great idea, I guess.. Way cheaper, way faster to install than soldered copper..
They just didn`t do their homework on the real characteristics of plastic..

Used clamps that were not designed to work with plastic pipe that wants to ALWAYS expand back to its original shape.. So it fights the clamps and eventually cuts itself there and starts leaking... and leaking...and leaking until you catch it..

My next door neighbor went on a 3 week vacation and came back to his entire master bathroom ceiling soaked through and collapsed onto the floor of his bathroom.. And all that water still leaking onto the floor, out the bathroom, into the bedroom,.. Yeah, talk about a ticking time bomb..
I think if I had known there was Pex out here, I would have not bought a house here..

Loved the article, thank you.
Dan F

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Originally Posted by Stokdgs

One thing I wish they had done more research on that affects everyone out here where I live, is Pex fresh water plumbing.. Great idea, I guess.. Way cheaper, way faster to install than soldered copper..

Used clamps that were not designed to work with plastic pipe that wants to ALWAYS expand back to its original shape.. So it fights the clamps and eventually cuts itself there and starts leaking... and leaking...and leaking until you catch it..

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You`re right of course, PEX isn`t better, it`s just cheaper. Just like those flex gas pipes they attach stoves with, sure that`s way faster than black pipe, until the kids lose a ball back there and pull out the stove to get it...and overstretch the flex pipe...

Maybe stop-start is a dumb idea done for a high ideal. The world is full of tradeoffs, sometimes we humans do things for the wrong reasons, like I`m sure it was a high ideal that caused Boeing to create for the 737 Max software that would help inexperienced pilots to fly more safely. Then some people in charge decided that to more effectively compete with Airbus they would try to minimize how big the changes were, and basically hide facts about the system from the FAA, the airlines, and the pilots.

I guess I`m just an optimist about technology. Almost 50 years ago my father woke me up in the middle of the night and carried me down to the TV (I had a broken foot), to watch the first man walk on the moon. It was a time when it seemed like we as a nation, could do anything.

I lived through the first horrible CAFE and Clean Air Act confluence, the horrible cars made in the late 70`s through I guess the late 80`s, and then I remember the wonderful cars we had in the 90`s and 00`s and up to today, really...Dodge Hellcats with over 700 HP; who, 40 years before, would have thought that was possible?

I`m confident that when we come out on the other side of this current CAFE period, we`re going to have fantastic cars that are fast, fun, and get great mileage. But maybe in the middle here we`re going to have some dumb stuff that doesn`t work so well and is annoying. Hopefully it doesn`t work out like PEX and garden faucets.

On start/stop: We`ve only experienced that in rentals and service loaners, but neither my wife nor I will ever be sitting in traffic with a vehicle that`s not running. Not one of `em has consistently restarted as fast as we can react to an emergent situation and we`re not gonna sit there and get hit waiting for a car to restart itself. Gas is cheap, avoiding injury is priceless.

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Originally Posted by Accumulator

On start/stop: We`ve only experienced that in rentals and service loaners, but neither my wife nor I will ever be sitting in traffic with a vehicle that`s not running. Not one of `em has consistently restarted as fast as we can react to an emergent situation and we`re not gonna sit there and get hit waiting for a car to restart itself. Gas is cheap, avoiding injury is priceless.

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Guess it depends on the implementation but MB stop start is super fast. As soon as you start letting up on the brake, the engine is already running before you even have a chance to step on the go pedal.

DAn- Ah, wow, that *is* great! The Audi and Nissan systems I have experience with aren`t like that, at least not consistently. They`re fast, but not fast enough to be transparent to me.

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Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000

I’m an oil snob. I don’t trust the dealer or local grease monkey to put the correct oil in my vehicles, I buy my oil (and filter) and take it to whoever is going to install it. I also try to watch and make sure they actually use my oil that I brought and not the bulk stuff. My OCD is not limited to paint.

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I would do the same but fortunately I can change my own oil.

I just had an oil change and I had gone 13k on Mobil 1 0-40. I was away for the winter and I was getting warnings on my dash that I need to change my oil. When I got home a couple of weeks ago I gone 3K over. My mechanic asked me if I had changed the oil since my last visit because it looked like fresh oil. He and I was both impressed at the condition of the oil.

Heh heh, if I didn`t trust the Tech 100% I just wouldn`t let him around my vehicle period. I`ve had too many, uhm...issues..where an apology after the fact didn`t cut it. Yes indeed, I`ll be up a [certain] creek if they retire!

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Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

One of the consequences of there being less engineers and less manufacturing, is less people are exposed to engineering and manufacturing. When you decide to utilize a stop-start system, you change the specification for the vehicle, which results in design and engineering changes to meet the new specification.
IMO you guys aren`t giving enough credit to the engineers and designers that make these systems work, by just presuming that nothing is changed except some suit told someone to change the software so that the starter and alternator get worn out.

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I did work in mechanical engineering, and yes, changes in specifications in machinery, or more correctly, requirements to meet government-mandated environmental and safety regulations drastically changed the functionality of a machine, requiring added costs to meet those changes. While making a machine to meet a new OSHA regulation may provide a worker with more "safety", trying to service or maintain such machinery may add hours to that needed service/maintenance time and hence cost. What is REALLY unfortunate is that non-regulated safety designs are often the result of the sue-happy society (legal system litigation) we have in America and the need to "cover your behind" to protect your machine design company.(I need to have a redundant safety switch on that guard panel? Why is the operator even in there in the first place!)

The other aspect of machine design was to make them "more efficient" that required less human interface or attention, AKA , automation. While this is done, the level of sophistication and complexity increases the cost while at the same time requiring a better educated and trained machine operator. You can no longer hire "someone off the street" to run some of these machines. They need tech school training on Programmable Logic Controls and Machine Human Interface Touch Screens, along with a high level mechanical aptitude. Everyone thinks that today`s machine operators are button pushers. They are not.

There are always trade-offs in design: less human intervention or a new level of safety requires increases sophistication and higher machine costs.
The other rule of design: Just when you think you`ve made some thing idiot-proof, they make better idiots!!

The analogy is much the same with today`s modern cars: there is not much the average vehicle owner can do in terms of maintenance on their own vehicle, EXCEPT maybe changing their oil. Without sophisticated electronic diagnostic equipment and training, it is difficult to service a modern vehicle properly because of the electronics and computers and proprietary software programs involved.

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Originally Posted by Lonnie

The analogy is much the same with today`s modern cars: there is not much the average vehicle owner can do in terms of maintenance on their own vehicle, EXCEPT maybe changing their oil. Without sophisticated electronic diagnostic equipment and training, it is difficult to service a modern vehicle properly because of the electronics and computers and proprietary software programs involved.

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I guess it depends on what you are used too. I look at an old engine with a carb and non electronic ignition and think wow, that looks complex. Today’s computerized systems do a nice job of pointing you in the right direction. Then you just use the charts to test the individual sensors or assemblies. You can even log data and pinpoint very intermittent issues.

I once had a vacuum leak that caused a weird stutter on an 90s mustang that drove me nuts for a year or so. Wish I had OBD2 back then.

The one thing that is bad on newer cars is when wiring starts to fail. That causes all sorts of issues.

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Originally Posted by Accumulator

DAn- Ah, wow, that *is* great! The Audi and Nissan systems I have experience with aren`t like that, at least not consistently. They`re fast, but not fast enough to be transparent to me.

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Yeah, I thought I was going to be buying something to bypass it but I’ve grown to like it. Also love the brake pedal hold function too. So helpful in traffic. Just come to a stop and push down just a bit harder and the car holds the brake. Just press the go pedal when the light turns green.

I`m not going to argue that some of this stuff is a result of our litigious society, or that the best way to idiot-proof things is not to have idiots, but I`m going to argue with this:

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Originally Posted by Lonnie

You can no longer hire "someone off the street" to run some of these machines. They need tech school training on Programmable Logic Controls and Machine Human Interface Touch Screens, along with a high level mechanical aptitude. Everyone thinks that today`s machine operators are button pushers. They are not.

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You could never hire "someone off the street", that was a fallacy promoted by the sales executives to the (machine-buying) bosses who wanted to be deluded or didn`t know any better. A sophisticated machine has always needed a sophisticated operator, otherwise all you get is garbage out.

Dan- I were just starting out driving/getting trained I`m sure I`d assimilate the new-tech the same way I did the old.

With so many things being different from car-to-car these days, I wonder how many people really get dialed-in with their vehicles. If controls/switches/etc. are in different places, or if doing one thing or another (e.g., the brake-hold example) differs, I don`t see how people are able to attain unconscious competence (yeah, I realize that few ever do anyhow :rolleyes: ). Life doesn`t pause for a second while ya remember what to do or look for something.

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Originally Posted by Accumulator

Dan- I were just starting out driving/getting trained I`m sure I`d assimilate the new-tech the same way I did the old.

With so many things being different from car-to-car these days, I wonder how many people really get dialed-in with their vehicles. If controls/switches/etc. are in different places, or if doing one thing or another (e.g., the brake-hold example) differs, I don`t see how people are able to attain unconscious competence (yeah, I realize that few ever do anyhow :rolleyes: ). Life doesn`t pause for a second while ya remember what to do or look for something.

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Most are too busy playing with their phone to drive anyway. No one appreciates good driving, it’s just a chore.

Agree entirely. And it seems people don`t take driving very seriously considering it`s probably the most dangerous thing most do on a regular basis. Familiarity/contempt and all that.

And people don`t know how to use ABS. Still. The last person to rear-end me (lowslung sedan`s front bumpercover, meet my Tahoe`s trailer hitch) would`ve stopped in plenty of time had she not let up, expensive lesson for her (zero problem for the Tahoe, lucky me..had I been in one of the sedans it would`ve been a disaster).

Boy, you got rear-ended again? I thought the last time that happened you were in the minivan.

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Originally Posted by Accumulator

With so many things being different from car-to-car these days, I wonder how many people really get dialed-in with their vehicles. If controls/switches/etc. are in different places, or if doing one thing or another (e.g., the brake-hold example) differs, I don`t see how people are able to attain unconscious competence (yeah, I realize that few ever do anyhow :rolleyes: ). Life doesn`t pause for a second while ya remember what to do or look for something.

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This is definitely a concern, like that actor that got run over by his Jeep because someone thought it was a good idea to change the standard shift lever layout because they could because it was "drive by wire" and not (mechanically) connected to anything. Waiting for someone to decide they should swap the gas and brake pedals to be "fresh".

Besides what Dan said about the phones, simply the fact that a satellite radio display has so much information on it to read vs. the old days with a just channel number, "who plays this song?" takes your eyes off the road for a much longer amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Accumulator

And people don`t know how to use ABS. Still. The last person to rear-end me (lowslung sedan`s front bumpercover, meet my Tahoe`s trailer hitch) would`ve stopped in plenty of time had she not let up, expensive lesson for her (zero problem for the Tahoe, lucky me..had I been in one of the sedans it would`ve been a disaster).

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I`m sure this will cheer you up...I`m sure the computer in those "forward collision-avoidance" systems knows how to use the ABS correctly.

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Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

This is definitely a concern, like that actor that got run over by his Jeep because someone thought it was a good idea to change the standard shift lever layout because they could because it was "drive by wire" and not (mechanically) connected to anything. Waiting for someone to decide they should swap the gas and brake pedals to be "fresh".

Besides what Dan said about the phones, simply the fact that a satellite radio display has so much information on it to read vs. the old days with a just channel number, "who plays this song?" takes your eyes off the road for a much longer amount of time.

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Yeah, way too much information spit out at the driver that is irrelevant. And critical stuff like engine temp is buried in a menu somewhere.

My wife has a 2017 Highlander and the owners manual says nothing about using extended mileage oil
It also has the start stop thing but it does have a button to cut it off
every time the engine is cut off and back on it enables that function again so you have to push the button again but that is not a problem
My house was built in 1999 and it has pex. Knock on wood I’ve never had a leak yet
a guy I worked with, his house was built a few years before mine and he had a bunch of leaks
His must’ve been a different type of pex
Setec, the last statement you made is very true
I worked for a company for 38 years, operating the machines for the first 15 and doing mechanical troubleshooting, replacing parts and adjustments for the last 23 years
You see good operators and bad operators

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Originally Posted by Accumulator

Agree entirely. And it seems people don`t take driving very seriously considering it`s probably the most dangerous thing most do on a regular basis. Familiarity/contempt and all that.

And people don`t know how to use ABS. Still. The last person to rear-end me (lowslung sedan`s front bumpercover, meet my Tahoe`s trailer hitch) would`ve stopped in plenty of time had she not let up, expensive lesson for her (zero problem for the Tahoe, lucky me..had I been in one of the sedans it would`ve been a disaster).

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the first big mistake was when they pulled drivers education out of the schools. Now there`s second generation of drivers who haven`t been properly educated on driving. I know I sure as heck paid to send my daughter to drivers education, but so many people don`t now. Plus people think that the car should now do everything for them. First came auto headlights. People won`t turn them on manually when it`s foggy, or raining because the car should do it for them. Then backup cameras come along. Oh all I have to do is look at this scary when I back up. When that camera doesn`t cover everything you need to be aware of. The list goes on. Then like was said people just busy with doing whatever instead of driving. I know phones are the biggest one anymore, but there`s always been distractions. I`ve seen crazy things, putting makeup on, shaving, sitting a book in the steering wheel to read, digging through tapes, changing clothes. It`s pure craziness.

When we we bought the Buick you had your choice between the 16`s and 17`s yet. It was a no brainer for to pick the 16. One to go with the other tread, no stop start feature. More important was they move the information screen from the top of the dash to the middle of the console. So now instead of it being closer to a heads up display. You have to look down the center stack. I have for years now put a aftermarket hud in the cars so I can focus more on the road.
https://www.autopia.org/forums/attac...id=35990&stc=1
https://www.autopia.org/forums/attac...id=35991&stc=1

Heh heh, Driving is one more thing that "everybody has a *right* to do" without the attendant responsibility.

Eh, that and "I`m good enough at [whatever] because I say so".

And good on you for adding the HUD so you`re not looking away from the road all the time!