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Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
so.......what`s in a traffic film remover product. A high alkaline product that is not in consumer format as it`s just not consumer friendly/safe ? Granted, I`m sure the the stuff that is for volume car wash places are much caustic in formulation, but any rhyme or reason we don`t see any available easily retail for the consumer. EPA, VOC laws, etc ? Just thinking outloud I suppose, etc about touchless washes and all......The intent or goal is not often, but there are times, like now, in sandy/salty seasons, where going touchless with a slightly, harsher wash would be be nice, IMO - LSP, being a different diatribe
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
I think we have had multiple board discussions about Traffic Film remover on a more consumer level and if I remember correctly (I could be dead wrong) it’s because of the EPA. If you want an alkaline cleaner, NexZett makes their Industrie-Reiniger Industrial Cleaner W99. You can find it on AG and I think ACC.
*Sorry about the font trouble everybody, AF and my phone are not playing well, together.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Yeah, I do use that as a pre-spray for the pre wash
A huge staple of my detailing regimine is 1Z
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
I wonder if it`s just Nanny State [crap], Uncle Sam watching out for ignorant ol` us.
After using (the apparently no longer sold) FK1119 I can`t imagine any kind of Traffic Film Remover being nastier than that.
I dunno about the spec that it`s "high alkaline" though...highly alkaline stuff isn`t always friendly to various materials. Anything moreso than, say...ValuGard`s "A" and I`d be leery.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
I just want to try it at least...ya know. Something that is potent enough that does not require mechanical agitation....mechanical being the word.
If at least trying it once, I can say at least, yeah, I tried it, it wasn`t for me...
I recall looking into TFR last year stateside - aka, usa, and all I found was 50 gallon drums if memory recalls. I was tempted yesterday, almost, had the cart for checkout to order 2 TFR from overseas. Shipping wasn`t the end of the world on the total
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Mobiledynamics -
Hope this is a great day !
Glad to read you are using Einszett products - I have also been using them since they first came out, a long, long, time ago..:)
Pretty hard to beat just the 2 products I use the most - Deep Plastic Cleaner, and Cockpit Premium...
At the Chevron gas station & carwash I used to use when I was Detailing full time for EastSide Bavarian, I would get there really early with a Client`s vehicle to get that part of the work done, and was surprised one day to see a guy come out in a what looked like a full on Hazmat suit to load up the part of the machine in the brick room in the middle of the carwash with a soap solution.. It must be pretty toxic, and with that, perhaps they have to have a license to buy it ??
That might be the answer why it is not sold on line at places we frequent..
Have you ever tried Meguiars D108 Super Degreaser as a pre-wash ? I have done this selectively and infrequently on the most dirty, greasy, nasty, vehicles with a good pressure wash rinse after and had great results..
I just re-read your "not requiring mechanical agitation" requirement, so perhaps this wont work for your needs after all :(
But it does do wonders to engines and engine compartments, rinses off really fast, does not foam like crazy, has never hurt anything under there, and makes the last part, spraying a great plastic conditioner, come out looking like better than a brand new engine and compartment..
Good luck with your research - hope you find what you want, just be careful, ok ? :)
Dan F
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
stokdgs,
cockpit, blitz, deep plastic and IR are heavy hitters in my bottles. Actually spoke to Mike last spring/summer...he`s in good spirits.
Indeed on no mechanical agitation. I`m basically trying to replicate my version of a `lazer 3000 touchless wash @ home ;-)
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
What about the truck washes? They seem pretty close to being the same as a TFR.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
mobiledynamics- Apologies if we`ve already covered this, but you`ve ascertained that you can`t just do the touchless stuff that I`m doing, right? I.e., your Traffic Film is just too tenacious no matter what LSP you try...
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
It could be water, it could be what combos they lay down locally I suppose.
Again, I always forget the behaviour, etc of winter but will pay close mind to the next HP wash. The one I did 2 weeks ago, I literally stood there with the HPW on a lower door , where the sill meets the trim of the wheel, and both the film on paint and trim just remained white.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mobiledynamics
.. I literally stood there with the HPW on a lower door , where the sill meets the trim of the wheel, and both the film on paint and trim just remained white.
Yikes, that`s just SO different from how it goes with mine that, well...gee...I dunno what to say.
The fact that it`s *white* sorta sounds like it`s just regular ol` salt. Warm water rinses that pretty much right off FK1000P, and more importantly, my other LSPs as well. Must be some wildcard factor in play.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Accumulator
Yikes, that`s just SO different from how it goes with mine that, well...gee...I dunno what to say.
The fact that it`s *white* sorta sounds like it`s just regular ol` salt. Warm water rinses that pretty much right off FK1000P, and more importantly, my other LSPs as well. Must be some wildcard factor in play.
Indeed. Per the other thread, where you are stating the HPW will get your fairly clean - I`ll be happy with that...
HPW for me will get the initial hard crust grit off, but will leave behind a film that must be mechanically removed. And well, the sensory feedback you get when you use a mitt (which you get in tune with), I cringe. Hence, I don`t mind trying a TFR knowing full well it`s ~strong stuff~.
It`s not like I`m using it for every washing session...
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mobiledynamics
... Per the other thread, where you are stating the HPW will get your fairly clean - I`ll be happy with that......
You can guess how happy I am that it`s working for me :D
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Accumulator
Yikes, that`s just SO different from how it goes with mine that, well...gee...I dunno what to say.
The fact that it`s *white* sorta sounds like it`s just regular ol` salt. Warm water rinses that pretty much right off FK1000P, and more importantly, my other LSPs as well. Must be some wildcard factor in play.
Can`t say for sure what brine I`m driving through, but for sure, they lay down liquid calcium chloride with sand. At times, just plain old Sodium Chloride.
Heh, maybe it`s some binder in the mix ? Dunno
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Do you have petroleum based degreaser available in the US? Most of them is based on mineral spirits and used as tar and adhisive remover. It`s common to use this in the winter in Sweden. The only thing to be carefull with is to only use up to the middle of the doors. Because if used the whole time over to the glass on the doors it can get in to the doors inside from the seals and ruin the rust protection there.
So my touchless wash would be to apply a petroleum based degreaser on the lower parts of the car sides and front and back. Let it dwell for over 5min but not let it dry. Then I apply a alkaline degreaser over it and let that dwell for 3-5min. Rinse of the car from bottom up and use the water pressure from the the PW clean the car. Then I would be if not 2bm wash it. Foam the car or use a pressure bottle with a car schampo to neutralise the degreasers and rinse it of from the top.
The thought about useing a tar remover and an alkaline product is that it breaks down different kind of dirt. Most sealants and synthetic waxes holds up to this over winter. And ceramic coatings certainly do it but an organic wax like carnuaba is breaking down fast with this method.
There have come out citrus based degreasers that are powerfull as a tfr. And I have one that I like alot that I think have lemone in it that works great to replace both alkaline products and tar degreaser. Which is Bilt Hamber surfex HD which I have seen has beginning to sold in the US. Even their Bilt Hamber Auto Foam is powerfull as a tfr prewash. Then you have Angelwax Cleanliness and Angelwax Fast Foam which you also can get know and works good. All of them works great with a foamcannon to get them to cling to the car longer.
And no it`s not replace to wash with touching the paint when washing. But it`s not far away to do it. In the summer with a good prewash foam and water pressure from the PW you can extend the time between touching the paint when washing. Just has to have a chemical resistant lsp and a method to dry without touching the paint and you get decent results not perfect though. And if I would be waterless or rinseless wash inside a garage sometime in the future I would certainly get the car a really through prewash before touching the paint.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Swetm -
Thanks for the feedback. Alot of the products mentioned are not available in the USA. I`ve followed amany of threads over at DW where said products are employed and then the HP rinsing followed u with a makeup applicator inspection to see how much residual dirt is picked up on the `white` swab test. For summer grade debris, yes, attainable in similar testing for me here stateside. Salt crust. No dice
For the conditions being discussed here, no product I`ve used will net as close, as I still need to use a mitt to get down to paint cleanliness. I`ve used AF Avalanch 3 or 4 times last year, and while it seemed better@removing initial cumulative road grime/film, it still required mechanical agitation in order to get clean.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Citrol, is the best tar, bug, water spot, etc remover I`ve used on a consumer level.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Superior products sells professional car wash products to consumers too. You can buy them through them directly or o`reilly`s and napa. Bottles to barrels of their products. I have some of their products on my shelf. One of the best parts is , they are a true USA company.
All Products - Page 1 - Superior Products
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Accumulator must have some special juju water. So today, double dwell with AF Avalanch.
Dry Car/AF Avalanch Dwell followed by a HP rinse. I did not get to do that long of a intended dwell as due to the moisture, salt/exothermic reaction was causing it to dry on the panel. I literally saw steam coming off the panels
Most of the grit/sand/gunk came out just short of the film. Black paint went from silver to now Charcoal Gray. My foam lance, I usually get about 1/3 use of the bottle for each coating, so I decided to do another AF Avalanch dwell/rinse (as I was not intending to clean it with a mitt today).
No change in more film being removed. Some spots still remain that are more white than charcoal...
At least most of the gunk is washed off, and with the pending rain, it will rinse clean off the driveway.
Glad I did the initial HP rinse today as there was chunks of sand/salt/stuff that came off underneath the chassis
Ahhh, the benefits living above the snowbelt line.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Wonder if/how my softened (uh-oh, sodium ions!) water *does* factor in? Guess "not much" since I finish up with deionized anyhow...that degree of exothermic reaction is something I`ve *not* experienced, but yeah it does flash off faster before I get all that [stuff] off of there.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Signs of getting older:o
The older sensible part of me is saying I`ve got the cleanest rides on the block right now, with the underchassis desalted/desanded and the minute I take it out onto blacktop, it will just be as dirty.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mobiledynamics
Signs of getting older:o
I`ve heard about that aging thing...no thanks ;)
Quote:
The older sensible part of me is saying I`ve got the cleanest rides on the block right now, with the underchassis desalted/desanded and the minute I take it out onto blacktop, it will just be as dirty.
Wel, I bet it won`t really be *just as dirty*, and good on ya for getting some of that [stuff] off the undercarriage.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
eh, maybe the european stuff I`ve ordered only works with european H20.....
I`ve watched the pics and vids on DW forum. These guys literally can take a white makeup applicator and it`s amazing how clean their post test results look ...
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Thx for the links on the truck wash guys. I`ve briefly looked at those, figuring they were high alkaline washes, etc. It`s the detailer OCD in me that requires homework on reading up on them, does the manf. recommend a neutralizing wash afterwards, etc, etc. And or can even get them in gallon jugs and not a 50 gallon drum delivered on a semi ;-)
Those touchless washes, aka, it`s a chemical wash after followed by HP jets. Hell, I tried the 15 degree tip shooting at a 45 angle, just because today....
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
I did take a couple of pictures to compare what a prewash with does for me before I wash with 2bm. The prewash is lsp safe and is made with specs for a domestic company here in Sweden. The second product I use is a tar degreaser you can use on wet surfeces and are made in Sweden also. This degrade the lsp a little and are only used to the lower side panels and the back of the car. A ceramic coating does it not effect the longevity of. The phone camera can has switch the setting between some photos as it was set on auto. But I think you can get to see the difference of the dirt that gets of in the steps.
The right side of the car I first rinsed of with a 45° nozzle tip with PW. First pic is before the rinse and the second after.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a9cfce2fb9.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b051b5218e.jpg
Then foamed the car and let it dwell for 5-7min and used the water pressure from the PW to clean.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8ddeb428c1.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1082d96ae7.jpg
This pic the tar degreaser has dwelled for 5min and clean rinsed to the right. You can see a small difference to the front wheel on the right but the big tar spot on the middle of the pic is loosen up. I got the tar of 3 weeks earlier.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d889003ffc.jpg
And the last pic before I do the wash with 2bm. The dark came fast so sorry no after pictures.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5889f74d95.jpg
Now to the left side of the car. Foamed it to dry paint and let it dwell for 5-7min and clean rinsed it of. This is the way I do it since it`s just as effective as a pre rinse and then foam.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9684ac8db8.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5249ebd96d.jpg
Hope you can see a little why I use a prewash method before touching the paint. If I only used to the prewash foam it could been a quick wash. But if I used the tar degreaser and not been doing a 2bm wash I would had to foam on a car soap and rinse it of to be neutralise the tar degreaser and be certain to get it fully of. I think that the tar degreaser is based on mineral spirits and that you don`t want to be on the car for to long.
I will look if I can find a sds document and take a screenshot for you so you can see what is in them.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Purple Power Heavy Duty Vehicle and Boat Pressure Wash Concentrate works for me, not super sudsy but cleans pretty well (does not strip tar, it will strip LSP if not careful) and is super cheap. Out of the bottle it has a pH rating of 10 is about $9 a gallon at Walmart. If I find that my foaming mixture isn`t cleaning like I want it do, I just add some more to the foam cannon because it costs me roughly $0.08/oz.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Ahh....its all coming back to me. I did say I don`t remember winter washing. It`s like I mentally block it every year.
As a benchmark on HP Rinse and what remains, the easy baseline would be even the glass. It`s still cloudy even after 2 HP thorough rinses.
A quick wipe with the wipers and all good. That mechanical agitation is what I`m trying to avoid, if possible.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Based on this thread I purchased a 5 gallon container of Valugard Progard Truck Wash (the smallest size you could purchase). It was $163 with shipping - I`m happy to ship a gallon to those who are interested - $32 shipped - shoot me a PM. I`ll never use all 5 gallons of this on my 2 winter cars.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
blast from the past. Have not looked at AI in forever...
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mobiledynamics
Ahh....its all coming back to me. I did say I don`t remember winter washing. It`s like I mentally block it every year.
As a benchmark on HP Rinse and what remains, the easy baseline would be even the glass. It`s still cloudy even after 2 HP thorough rinses.
A quick wipe with the wipers and all good. That mechanical agitation is what I`m trying to avoid, if possible.
Test a citrus based degreaser and see what it does. A solvent based tar degreaser I would not use higher up than to the windows begins. But think a good cleaning with a glass cleaner is the best way to go. Spray on mf towel to control overspray. And maybe look into a good window coating that makes them easier to clean.
I have a opinion that them who is useing undiluted washer fluid accually destroys the rust protection and the paint. That leads to rust from inside the water drain chanels that runs thrue from the a-pillars to the bottom of the car vertical. And if it is on the backwindow where it runs down after wiped of with the wipers. Often is washer fluid based on ipa or ethanol I think and if used wrong I don`t think it`s good in the long run. You can see those who use solvent based tar degreaser over the sidewindows and it`s starting to rust from inside of the doors. My stepfather bought a used car that I suspect they have done this to. It`s the car on the pictures and is a Ford Focus 2011. I can show you pics from the back and it`s already rusted and follow the lines where the washer fluid runs down. And even the rubber gets streaking on the sidewindows and runs down the paint. I don`t get it to stop how much I clean it. A little rain and then it`s beginning to run down the car again. Someone with a RV who has had this problem with rubber seals and what you do to stop it is very welcome to help me out. Post pictures of it a little later.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
I think there is good reason WHY traffic film removers (TFRs) are NOT a consumer-base product; consumers are not washing their vehicles in the winter outside. (unless its me in Wisconsin doing it during our January thaw, like yesterday when it was 48°F) Salt-removal and its associated liquid-binder(s) as the main source of traffic film are the domain of commercial car washes in the winter and car-wash chemicals designed for traffic film removal are in that same domain: commercial car washes, whether touch-less or brush.
I know that there are three car-wash chemical companies in my local area (DePere, WI): Lustra (Cleaning Systems, Inc), Blue Daulphin, & R.Lewis Technologies and for good reason. There are two major commercial car wash companies in the same area: PDQ Manufacturing and WashWorld, Inc. Most of them are spin-offs from PDQ Manufacturing. R.Lewis Technologies is owned and run by "Red" Lewis, who was the inventor of automated touch-less car washes and started PDQ Manufacturing. He sold this business, but developed his own car-care chemical company and chemical product blending/mixer equipment.
My point is that consumer-based car washes and chemicals for them that we Autopians are used to using, even using power washers, is NOT the same as those used in a commercial car wash. That said, I would think that car cleaning chemicals developed for commercial car-washes MIGHT have a cross-over application for power washers and until someone here obtains some and tries it , we Autopians do not know if it is feasible as such. I go back then to my original statement: how many consumers (Autopians) in winter-climate areas where salt and binders are used clean their own cars in the winter, whether outside or in a heated garage?
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
This product looks interesting. Salt-X = The best salt and salt corrosion fighter!
plus it says no scrubbing required.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lonnie
I go back then to my original statement: how many consumers (Autopians) in winter-climate areas where salt and binders are used clean their own cars in the winter, whether outside or in a heated garage?
See, I just find that surprising! I`ve been pretty nuts about doing it since forever...my Mother`s utterly wonderful `69 Charger R/T rusted away inthe early `70s because she and her sister drove it in the winter without getting all the salt washed away (they were otherwise incredibly good about the Detailing stuff, let alone for women back then) and I never wanted that to happen to one of mine. (Heh heh, my Father traded his in too frequently for his relative neglect to bite him.)
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coleroad
This product looks interesting..
I wonder...it says it "lifts the salt so it can be rinsed away" but then it says it gets into nooks and crannies and "kills it". Two very different things to me...no no, not flaming, just wondering.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lonnie
how many consumers (Autopians) in winter-climate areas where salt and binders are used clean their own cars in the winter, whether outside or in a heated garage?
I wash all year round. I just make sure I wash early enough that there is enough time for the sun or dry winter air to dry the pad so that it`s not a ice skating rink the following morning.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Lonnie -
In all honesty, I know there is a lot of ju ju sauce going on with touchless washes. Combo of lo-high ph chems, specific dwell times, specific dwell times, then pressure jets to get all that much off after the chemical peel if you want to call it that. One can only wonder or wish to some degree one can acheive it @ home in a consumer or in this case, a prosumer environment ?
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coleroad
I`ve used saltX in the past. Its ok but I much prefer Whip`s Wax. We will see if the ProGard wash works well - its being delivered Monday.
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Re: Traffic Film Remover - Not a consumer Item
This is pics of the same car and the same wash I uploaded before. So before pic 1 and foam pic 2 and after foam clean rinsed pic 3 and the 4th pic after tar degreaser and before touching the paint.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4a64f5a7d6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...719e66c201.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2e80976dee.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d51ae7368b.jpg
You can see the rust and paint chips a little bit over and to each side of the number plate. And the wiper end turns where the window fluid runs down. Even at the lowest edge of the trunk lid is a rust line. This happens before the car was 4 years old. And since I have started to take care of the last year it`s stopped spreading slower I think.
Here I try to translate from the sds document of a touchless wash that is available to the consumer in Sweden. And what I have seen so far on swedish forums it`s impresive. We can accually get wash chemicals that is used in car brush washes and touchless car washes. I think those is even to strong for me to use LOL. And I think you have noticed that I use more chemicals when washing than you are used to see. But as I have said before it`s a common way to prewash like this here. And if you want to test it out. Get a citrus based degreaser like Angelwax Cleanliness and a tar remover and either wash after or foam a car soap on and rinse. The best results you get with a pressure wash.
But you can go to a coin op and have pressure spray bottles or and spray bottles with chemicals ready to use. If you do it this way start with apply the tar remover first. Apply it to the side and back of the car and from the bottom up to a bit before where the windows begins. And when it has dwelled after recommended time from the manufacture and you don`t let it dry. You apply the citrus degreaser over it and to the whole car and let that dwell as recommended. Then PW it of with start from the bottom and work your way up and use the water pressure from the PW as it`s your wash mitt. Rinse the car well after this to get it of. Do your wheels if needed to if the citrus degreaser didn`t cleaned it. The tar degreaser you can use on the wheels if needed. But not in the wheel wells!
Now you finish with apply the the car soap and let it dwell for a couple of minutes and rinse it of. Start your engine and drive off :) And if you have a good sheeting lsp the water rolls of. Or if you have a cordless leafblower to dry it. Not touching the paint with a drying towel as it`s not clean enough. If possible and if you want to rinseless or waterless wash it at the coin op or when you come home.
Chemicals in the prewash and touchless wash from the product Mafra Mangusta. It`s a Italy based company.
From the msds
Etidronic acid <5%
Ethoxy alcohol <5%
EDTA <5%
Sodium hydroxide <5%
Nitrilotriacetic acid <5%
2-Butoxyethanol <2%
Potassium hydroxide <2%
When used in the foamcannon the dilution is about 1:9 and max chemical from it. From a spray bottle a dilution about 1:50. You can only buy it in 5 gallon size. There is some harsh chemicals in that lol
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