Random thoughts on pad selection

Gents, I`ve been thinking... (just don`t let my wife know that. She gets nervous when I think).



How do you select what pad you are going to use? What`s the thought process behind your selection?



FWIW, here`s my thoughts on the issue...



When compounding, I like to pick a compound suitable for the paint I`m correcting, then vary the pad aggressiveness according to how much correcting I need to do. For the most part, I try to stay with M105 and PFW for compounding, as it is a great combination of correction ability and it finishes down *very* nicely, even on soft paints. However, if I need more correction, I`ll stick with the M105, and increase the aggressiveness of the pad to, say, an Edge 2K yellow wool. If even that isn`t enough, I`ll go up to a black Edge wool. At this point, if I`m still not getting enough cut, I`ll change to a more aggressive compound and go back to the PFW.



For light polishing and jeweling, I like to stick with a zero bite pad (I`m using either red Edge wave foam, Edge white finishing wool, or Meg`s Soft Buff 2.0 Black) and vary the polish according to how bad the remaining defects are and according to the hardness of the paint. I like to stay with a zero bite pad, because any pad that has any bite to it can only finish down to a level that that particular pad is capable of. Yeesh, that sounds complicated... Let`s see if I can paint a better picture.. Let`s say we have a Gloss Scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the highest possible gloss. Now let`s pair a zero bite pad (gloss potential of 10) with a polish that hits 8 on the gloss scale. As long as our technique is correct, we finish out with the gloss scale number that is lowest of the pad/polish used. In this case 8, as the polish is only capable of finishing out to an 8. Now let`s use that same 8-rated polish with an LC white pad, which does have some bite to it, and it has a gloss rating of 6. Now our final gloss is limited to six because of the pad`s max gloss rating.



So by using a zero bite pad, we eliminate the pad`s ability to negatively effect the final gloss, and are truly seeing the *polish`s* gloss ability, which is what we want. Otherwise, how would you ever know if you are really reaching your light/finishing polish`s potential if you are using a pad that has bite to it?



So to summarize, I always use a zero bite pad after compounding in order to get the maximum gloss that particular polish can give me. If I need more bite, I`ll change to a polish with more bite to it, but stay with a zero bite pad, again so I get the best finish that polish can give me.



Works for me, anyway. How do you guys decide?

Hmmm very interesting. I haven`t had the need to go past PFW/M105, but your theory with the finishing polish is interesting. I`m going to try it out tomorrow, I typically just use PO85RD and it brings the gloss up to an amazing level, I`ll try it on a Detailersdomain Blue Pad and then the Detailersdomain black wax pad and let you know if I see any difference.



Thanks for your thoughts Supe :goodjob

Good little writeup there.



You should say you are going to publish it, torturing us by saying you are perfecting it, call it the SBM, then finally release it to us mere mortals. :D



I really have been doing a lot of reading on this jeweling method that you summarized nicely here. Im familiar with using a finishing pad with a finishing polish such as PO85, but am not too familiar with using a lighter polish with a finishing pad and then a finishing polish with a finishing pad.



Is that what you are saying?



Maybe it would help by posting your *preferred* steps in order with pad/polish combos.



Nice job.

I tend to follow a similar thought process. My first pad I try is almost always an 8006 with 105 or SOLO via Makita or Ultimate Compound via DA. If it`s not enough I go to SOLO yellow wool with 105 or SOLO. If I`m going wool for my first step I know an 8006 with Ultimate Compound is next via DA followed by #205 via black finishing pad. If I can get away with an 8006 and any liquid via rotary or DA then I go right to #205 and a black pad.



However, I have some PFW pads I have been playing with. I don`t have enough time with them to know if I can go right to finishing pad/polish. Last time I still went to UC and an 8006 via DA before finishing with black and M205.



Basically I do one of two things it seems:

Wool

8006

Black finishing



or:

8006

Black finishing



And I vary my cut with various polishes and machines. I am using fewer different pads and steps now that non-diminishing polishes are available in so many different cut levels.

Thanks for this tid bit. I am going to do an exterior detail of my RX this weekend. It will be my first time ever using a DA and I was still up in the air on how I was going to do it. Thanks to your suggestion, I will likely use the M105 with the Meg`s Soft Buff 2.0 polishing pad and finish with M205 and Meg`s Soft Buff 2.0 finishing pad.



Don`t worry, I`ll post pics of my before and after.

I`ve still never used PFW yet. Always meaning to pick one up to try it though. But it all comes down to the color of the paint for me. Usually my most aggressive combo is a finish twisted wool pad with a decent cut compound (Heavy/Med) I`ll go a couple passes (as needed) and then switch up to a polish wool finish combo again another couple passes (as needed) and then it`s over to the foam to finish down. I also like the zero bite pads for final glossing. Usually it`s UF pad with UF but I`ve been playing around alot with 205 and getting some great results there as well.

Interesting thread...



I am going to try the zero bite pad theory / Superbee Method when I get some time, perhaps this weekend.



My thoughts go like this or did up until now....



Compounding I would always reach for SIP and LC Orange, if I needed more bite then I reached for the PFW pad. If I still needed more bite, then well uhhh I dont really trust myself wetsanding yet, so multiple passes with the PFW would be in order (dont have much in the way of wool pads yet, no need for them yet).



Polishing I would always just reach for a LC White pad and 106FA to start and if that was to aggressive (a la jet black bmw or honda paint) then I would go with the LC Black/Grey and 106FA or 85RD. I have always just gone with the crowd when it comes to polishing and correcting paint...this zero bite pad theory or now the superbee method intrigues me.



I have several red/black/blue pads will really have to try my hand at polishing with a red pad....



Thanks Supe





Edit:

Random thought, has anyone tried the LC Gold pad seen here at the bottom, with a final polish like 106FA or 85RD? Wonder what the results of that would be...

Oh god we coined another term here now LOL....

Great thread, really got me thinking.



If I use 105 and PFW/Orange LC/Megs Yellow or Burg wool. I always find myself following up with 106ff/white or 205/white, just kinda turned into a habit. I only whip out a no bite pad and PO85rd or Ultrafina when I`m working on a soft clear or if there is any marring left from the white pad.



I usually have fantastic results with white pads, but now that you have got me brain working maybe I`ll give the no bite method a spin around the block.

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Originally Posted by bwalker25

Edit:

Random thought, has anyone tried the LC Gold pad seen here at the bottom, with a final polish like 106FA or 85RD? Wonder what the results of that would be...

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I recently used a CCS Gold pad with FPII and UF to burnish the paint on a car with a relatively soft clear. While I can`t claim night and day results, the reflections looked sharper afterwards. To tell the truth, I went overboard with the polishing, stepping down from Grey/M205 to Red/UF to Gold/UF or FPII.

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Originally Posted by Jakerooni

I`ve still never used PFW yet. Always meaning to pick one up to try it though. But it all comes down to the color of the paint for me. Usually my most aggressive combo is a finish twisted wool pad with a decent cut compound (Heavy/Med) I`ll go a couple passes (as needed) and then switch up to a polish wool finish combo again another couple passes (as needed) and then it`s over to the foam to finish down. I also like the zero bite pads for final glossing. Usually it`s UF pad with UF but I`ve been playing around alot with 205 and getting some great results there as well.

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Shoot... If I had a new one, I`d send it to you. JMO, but PFW`s are as much of a breakthrough as M105.

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Originally Posted by VForce

Thanks for this tid bit. I am going to do an exterior detail of my RX this weekend. It will be my first time ever using a DA and I was still up in the air on how I was going to do it. Thanks to your suggestion, I will likely use the M105 with the Meg`s Soft Buff 2.0 polishing pad and finish with M205 and Meg`s Soft Buff 2.0 finishing pad.



Don`t worry, I`ll post pics of my before and after.

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Excellent.. I`m gonna be living vicariously through you guys the next few weeks, cause I won`t be detailing. Pictures would be great!

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Originally Posted by craigdt

Good little writeup there.



You should say you are going to publish it, torturing us by saying you are perfecting it, call it the SBM, then finally release it to us mere mortals. :D



I really have been doing a lot of reading on this jeweling method that you summarized nicely here. Im familiar with using a finishing pad with a finishing polish such as PO85, but am not too familiar with using a lighter polish with a finishing pad and then a finishing polish with a finishing pad.



Is that what you are saying?



Maybe it would help by posting your *preferred* steps in order with pad/polish combos.



Nice job.

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Yeah, I can see how that can be a bit confusing, cause I didn`t really outline my "normal" procedure. I try to use my favorite two-step combination on most cars I detail. Step one is normally M105 and PFW with a rotary. This is my preferred first step, because you can do anything from very mild and gentle correction (just use little pressure and few passes) to heavy duty compounding (more pressure and more passes), and it finishes down nicely even on soft paints.



Step two is *normally* Ultrafina with a zero bite pad. A lot of the time this will require two applications of UF to get out the compounding marks and holos from the first step, but UF is so fast and easy to use that two applications of UF only takes as much time as, say, one application of PO106FF. This second step is where I vary the polish and stay with a zero bite pad. I try to use the most gentle poilsh I can at this point that will still get the compounding marks and holos out, as (generally) the more gentle a polish is, the better gloss it`ll finish out with. And since I`m using a zero bite pad, the results I see are an accurate representation of what that polish can produce.



Lately I`ve been trying to replace UF with M205 for the second step, because it has a lot more correcting ability than UF does. So far, I`ve only been able to get 205 to finish out holo free with a rotary on hard clears, but with a PC it finishes out beautifully. M205 with a PC is a *fantastic* combination. We can thank Kevin Brown and Meguiars for that one.



Step three (for the customers that pay for it) is a dedicated jeweling step. Zero bite pad with a real jeweling polish like FPII or 85RD. Sometimes, M105/PFW will finish down so well (normally on really hard paints) that I can go straight to PO85RD/zero bite pad and jeweling.



That`s the benefit of using 105 with a PFW; it`ll allow you to do two-step paint corrections the majority of the time.



Unless I`m compounding, I`m using a zero bite pad.

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Originally Posted by Darkstar752

Hmmm very interesting. I haven`t had the need to go past PFW/M105, but your theory with the finishing polish is interesting. I`m going to try it out tomorrow, I typically just use PO85RD and it brings the gloss up to an amazing level, I`ll try it on a Detailersdomain Blue Pad and then the Detailersdomain black wax pad and let you know if I see any difference.



Thanks for your thoughts Supe :goodjob

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That would be great, I haven`t seen any posts about those pads.



Thanks for the responses and input, guys, good stuff.

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Originally Posted by FJF

I recently used a CCS Gold pad with FPII and UF to burnish the paint on a car with a relatively soft clear. While I can`t claim night and day results, the reflections looked sharper afterwards. To tell the truth, I went overboard with the polishing, stepping down from Grey/M205 to Red/UF to Gold/UF or FPII.

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Man, I bet that looked sweet after all that jeweling. That sounds like a great progression to really bring out max gloss... 205 to UF to FPII. Rydawg would be proud. :)

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Originally Posted by TheMethod

Great thread, really got me thinking.



If I use 105 and PFW/Orange LC/Megs Yellow or Burg wool. I always find myself following up with 106ff/white or 205/white, just kinda turned into a habit. I only whip out a no bite pad and PO85rd or Ultrafina when I`m working on a soft clear or if there is any marring left from the white pad.



I usually have fantastic results with white pads, but now that you have got me brain working maybe I`ll give the no bite method a spin around the block.

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Let us know how it works for you?



I`m always nervous to suggest this kinda stuff in case it doesn`t work as well for others as it does for me. Either way, though, it`d be great to hear (and *see* ;) ) your results.

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Originally Posted by SuperBee364

Let us know how it works for you?



I`m always nervous to suggest this kinda stuff in case it doesn`t work as well for others as it does for me. Either way, though, it`d be great to hear (and *see* ;) ) your results.

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You shouldn`t be nervous about suggesting this "method". If it doesn`t cut enough for someone then they should know to step up their pad selection. I know Todd uses something along these lines, there was a video of him using PO85rd on Blue LC I think and he talked about having to apply pressure to get some cut because the pad wouldn`t cut by itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperBee364

Man, I bet that looked sweet after all that jeweling. That sounds like a great progression to really bring out max gloss... 205 to UF to FPII. Rydawg would be proud. :)

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I`m honored by the comparison. :)



The paint is graphite grey and it doesn`t exactly pop, unfortunately. The extended polishing made it more reflective and glossy than ever. M205 on a Grey CCS/Flex took out all the hairline scratches in the clear and was subjectively responsible for 75% of the final look. I varied the speed of the machine and the pressure to slightly burnish the finish during the last few (M205) passes.

Good post bud...



What do you use as your zero bit pad?



I`m asking as I tend to use the same `methods` as you except I use Meg`s 9006 pad as my `zero bite pad`... I`ve only once or twice had to go to a black LC pad to finish down better than with 9006 and both times it was on Porsche paint... one was 200x ccd one was ss 94 or 95.



The pad selection process for me goes basically like this...



Always start with M80/8006 (unless I know/think the paint is very soft, like previous mentioned Porsche paint, few Nissans, etc. then I start with M80/9006)... starting with this combo tells me a lot because this is a combo that can easily finish down LSP ready even on some medium to soft paints, but also can cut some serious defects with proper pressure and on most paints...



Depending on how the M80/8006 step goes, I`m either going to M80/PFW or M95/PFW or M80/9006... I rarely use M80/PFW because M95, just like M105 (which I haven`t perfected yet as many have, SuperBee being one, so I don`t use it much on rotary) finishes down great while taking care of some serious defects, and can easily be `cleaned up` with M80/9006.... obviously M80/9006 is if the paint is on the softer side and I see M80/8006 correcting a lot/everything...



I rarely use a `pure` jeweling step as I rarely get those 3-5 step details where I can take my sweet time perfecting the paint, but when I do, or when working on very soft paint as a 2nd/final step, I`ll usually go with M09/9006, M09/LC black, FPII/9006 or 85rd/black... I use M09 on some regulars` vehicles that I don`t want to remove much paint since I do maintenance polishing 1-2 times per year at least, so I go for very light `correction` and hiding the rest (yes they know haha)...



In short, I`ve narrowed down most of my details to LC PFW, Meg`s 8006, 9006 and M80, M95... going a bit further I would add FPII and M09 as well as black LC pad...



If I had to choose only a couple pads and polishes, I`d easily go for M95, M80, PFW and M8006 & 9006

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Originally Posted by lecchilo

Good post bud...



What do you use as your zero bit pad?



I`m asking as I tend to use the same `methods` as you except I use Meg`s 9006 pad as my `zero bite pad`... I`ve only once or twice had to go to a black LC pad to finish down better than with 9006 and both times it was on Porsche paint... one was 200x ccd one was ss 94 or 95.



The pad selection process for me goes basically like this...



Always start with M80/8006 (unless I know/think the paint is very soft, like previous mentioned Porsche paint, few Nissans, etc. then I start with M80/9006)... starting with this combo tells me a lot because this is a combo that can easily finish down LSP ready even on some medium to soft paints, but also can cut some serious defects with proper pressure and on most paints...



Depending on how the M80/8006 step goes, I`m either going to M80/PFW or M95/PFW or M80/9006... I rarely use M80/PFW because M95, just like M105 (which I haven`t perfected yet as many have, SuperBee being one, so I don`t use it much on rotary) finishes down great while taking care of some serious defects, and can easily be `cleaned up` with M80/9006.... obviously M80/9006 is if the paint is on the softer side and I see M80/8006 correcting a lot/everything...



I rarely use a `pure` jeweling step as I rarely get those 3-5 step details where I can take my sweet time perfecting the paint, but when I do, or when working on very soft paint as a 2nd/final step, I`ll usually go with M09/9006, M09/LC black, FPII/9006 or 85rd/black... I use M09 on some regulars` vehicles that I don`t want to remove much paint since I do maintenance polishing 1-2 times per year at least, so I go for very light `correction` and hiding the rest (yes they know haha)...



In short, I`ve narrowed down most of my details to LC PFW, Meg`s 8006, 9006 and M80, M95... going a bit further I would add FPII and M09 as well as black LC pad...



If I had to choose only a couple pads and polishes, I`d easily go for M95, M80, PFW and M8006 & 9006

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Gret information, lecchilo. I haven`t used a few of those combos and they sound very good. More stuff to try... :)



I have quite a few different zero bite pads. I have a few of the really big 3M Ultrafina pads (the blue ones), some LC grey, black, and red, a Megs Soft Buff 2.0 Black (which I *really* like. It`s a great pad for KBM`ing), and Edge 2k six inch red wave foam, and last but not least... Edge 2k six inch white finishing wool, which I only use on harder clears.

I never really liked M80 on a 9006 pad. Almost like the pad was too soft to break M80 down well. Before I started using M205 I would finish with M80 on an 8006 pad. On soft paints or if I wanted to final polish the paint more I would use M09 on a 9006 pad. That was a combo that is one of my favorites for finishing and something that I still would like to try after M205. I`ve been leery as of yet since M205 finishes so clear and sharp. I might buff on my car this weekend and maybe I`ll give it a go.

It seems that most of the vehicles I have needed to correct were not really bad. It could be that I am really anal-retentive about my washing. I say that because to "fix" my trucks usually takes 1-2 passes with OP and a LC white. I usually follow that with UF on a LC blue pad to finish and get all the gloss I can.



I have tried using a few polishes with the LC blue and the only one I get good results with is UF. I get horrible trails using OP or M82. Most likely my fault though. The strange thing is, on both of my Ford trucks OP on LC white finishes with almost no holos, they are really hard to spot.



On the few trashed cars I have buffed, the PFW corrected well, but left swirls behind that took OHC on LC white then UF to fix. I tried a few of the compounds I had, I might have to look into M105 for the big jobs.

Anyone not getting the hang of M105 on rotary should definitely try M95... I haven`t used M105 enough via rotary to compare exactly how much each cuts, but M95 with PFW gets `everything` out for me on rotary... it`s easily finished up with M80/white/8006/9006 or even 106ff on some paints.

M95 acts more like a traditional compound, right?

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Originally Posted by scary bill

M95 acts more like a traditional compound, right?

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Yes it does

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Originally Posted by SuperBee364

if I need more correction, I`ll stick with the M105, and increase the aggressiveness of the pad to, say, an Edge 2K yellow wool. If even that isn`t enough, I`ll go up to a black Edge wool. At this point, if I`m still not getting enough cut, I`ll change to a more aggressive compound and go back to the PFW.

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What are you using that is more aggressive than Black Edge Wool and 105? That is a serious combo.

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Originally Posted by SuperBee364

That would be great, I haven`t seen any posts about those pads.



Thanks for the responses and input, guys, good stuff.

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The Detailers Domain pads are fantastic, at least the Blue(light polish), Green(med polish), and Black ones. Don`t like the orange, way too stiff, but the blue and green are really nice.



I tried your method, but didn`t see a difference. But I think it was because I was working on silver metallic paint that I had already hit twice with PO85RD and a blue pad. I only did one spot. I`ll test it more extensively on the black car I have coming up.

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Originally Posted by bert31

What are you using that is more aggressive than Black Edge Wool and 105? That is a serious combo.

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Beach sand, aka 3M Extra Cut.



There`s a few compounds out there with more chops than 105, but they don`t finish down *nearly* as well as 105 does.

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Originally Posted by lecchilo

Yes it does

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Well, I`m torn. I`ll have to wait to buy more goodies, I have plenty at the moment. I should be able to make up my mind by then.