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This is why you measure paint!
This is a 2018 Mazda. I’ll have more later but this is why a responsible detail shop will measure paint thickness! Some people will go after this with a rotary and wool pad! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4e54f2de08.jpg
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
If that is in Mils, then its 70.8406 Microns... Total Thickness... Not Clear Coat Total Thickness...
This is just terrible news on a new 2018 Mazda !!!
If a shop tells you they are going to use a rotary and wool on your new car, you need to run away from those drunk clowns fast...
Glad you are always on top of it, Mike !
Dan F
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
For those not familiar, that’s thinner than a post it note! Thank you!
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That is crazy thin! Curious Mike why you chose Mills instead of microns? I know their have been many threads on the topic but I`m still curious.
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Just always trained that way, just never switched?
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Wow, what model Mazda is that? that is super thin!!
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Are they cutting back on clear coat, paint, or both on the new cars to save a few bucks? When I got my car painted I picked out the type of clear and had them put 3 coats on. Looked great, but wow a ton of orange peel that had to be sanded.
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I see Mazda hasn`t changed this for the better; that`s even a tiny bit thinner than our last one was.
Mike lambert- Thanks for posting this! Very timely too, as we`ve been discussing wetsanding/orange peel on a few threads lately.
Eh, forget wetsanding, that`s not thick enough for much correction period so I hope it doesn`t get marred up. You planning to coat it with Modesta?
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I wouldn’t attempt to remove any texture on a newer car! Despite what others are doing. That greatly diminishes the life of the paint. Yes it will get Modesta, that is all we offer now. Thank you!
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike lambert
For those not familiar, that’s thinner than a post it note! Thank you!
Thanks for sharing. It`s nuts that this new car paint is so thin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PearTree
Curious Mike why you chose Mills instead of microns? I know their have been many threads on the topic but I`m still curious.
You asked Mike, but I`ll chime in with why I choose what I do. For me, it reminds of a tachometer with a dual range readout. Two pics below do essentially the same thing: read engine RPMs. One does it at a constant range, while the other has a dual range. The dual range one, if you notice, has a certain range that is more pronounced. It`s for an application where that range is more important than the lower RPMS
Attachment 35395 Attachment 35394
When I started using a PTG, and when I first learned about it, the measurements were in Mils. After playing with it a bit, and trying out the different settings, I switched and continue to use microns. Why?
For me, it`s like that dual range tachometer. I want to "zoom in" to an area that is easier to read. Example:
Here are some readings I just took from my hood: 118, 115, 112. Say this was a 2 step correction, I would have started with 118 microns, then 115 after the 1st step, and finally ended up at 112 microns.
Okay. I easily see that I went from 118, to 115, to 112. Easy peasy
Those same readings (using the conversion) in mils are: 4.6456, 4.5276, and 4.4094. Now I`m looking at decimal points, or tenths/hundredths of a number!
I don`t want to be trying to calculate numbers in my head while working on a panel.
Conclusion: For ME, it`s just easier to read whole numbers versus decimals
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I will ask the inevitable question for those of us uneducated on today`s automotive paint production methods; What IS an "acceptable" paint thickness for a new car??
Just Jesus
I like your thought process about whole numbers using microns. I makes sense as long as you are familiar with the unit of measurement and can relate to how much it is for what you are measuring.
I only say that because we in the United States still use Imperial/English standard units of measurements for length (miles/yards/feet/inches/mils) where the rest of the world used the metric system (Kilometers/meters/centimeters/millimeters/microns?). Why America has not gone to the Metric System is because we have no experience in relating to how much a millimeter is; IE because we have not been taught or use tools to measure those values, we have no concept or mental relationship to relate to it. I think Accumulator brought out the fact that is 1974 (1974!!!) that an act of Congress mandated that the USA would convert to the Metric System by the year 1985. Why didn`t this happen? Simple. Our manufacturing and tooling (drills, cutting tools, measuring, and dies used to make fasteners and metal shapes) would have to change over make parts and raw materials to conform to this "new" measuring system and that would be cost-prohibitive to the entire US economy, SOOOOO the law was never enforced. Oh, there was some "concessions" made, like having highway signage on US Interstates denote distances in Kilometers and Miles (something you may see today) and industries COULD use it if they desired, which some do because it is "required" (IE, mandated) IF you want to export your products to foreign countries/entities, like the European Union. As a mechanical designer and draftsmen, my schooling was very much inches and fractions and to this day I am "old school" and can only relate to this system. (Yes, I still do conversions from millimeters to inches with a calculator or chart). That said, education and familiarity by daily usage with the Metric System is the only way we Americans will convert to its usage. Those of you in the medical and chemical fields know the Metric System very well because that is the defacto measuring system taught AND used by individuals in those fields of study and careers. OK, so this is SOOOOOOOOO off-topic to measuring today`s automotive production paint thickness, so I digress......
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I don’t think you can answer that question? I think the question needs to be nowadays is what is now the acceptable amount of paint you can remove over the life of the car, and still keep the integrity?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike lambert
I don’t think you can answer that question? I think the question needs to be nowadays is what is now the acceptable amount of paint you can remove over the life of the car, and still keep the integrity?
Agree. It`s not like most people care how much paint there is or how much correction it can stand.
And with it being *SO* easy to cut off a lot of clear in moments these days, it could be a recipe for disaster long-term. But few people really think of vehicles as long-term investments any more, so I doubt many will really care about that either.
For those of us who *do* care, IMO the #1 priority oughta be not marring it in the first place.
Regarding the Metric System- as a kid back in the `60s I was taught both English and Metric side-by-side and expected to know both. In first grade.
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Mike:
I think mass vehicle manufacturer`s in general are SO cost-conscious that this is affecting vehicle quality and vehicle safety. I say safety with the GM ignition switch fiasco as a prime example. Let`s face it, vehicles a finite life subject to vehicle warranties. Car batteries are a good example: they last the life of warranty, not the life of the car. Is vehicle paint/clear coat becoming the next "limited warranty" item???
Maybe it is time for the consumer demand better. That will not happen unless vehicle sales by any manufacturer drops precipitously. It might if a buyer went in to a car dealer with a paint thickness gauge (PTG) and started measuring it on new vehicles, then post the results on social media for all to see and know about. Maybe this thread/post is just the start of such information and, hopefully, a response by manufacturers.
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I`m with Jesus on this one - I want to see the closest number measurement of the Total Thickness (since that is what my meter measures), and once I know that number on that spot on the panel, when I re-measure it as I work, I can see exactly how much of 1 micron, etc., I removed...
I want to remove (as we all do), as - little - as possible, and get acceptable clarity and gloss for the Client at whatever price point he/she is paying for..
Looking at it in Microns works best for me..
Dan F
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Lonnie- Agree with that too :D
But I suppose that if a maker decided to up the build/buy cost to cover doing things (our version of) "right", most customers would buy something else because hey..they don`t worry about that [stuff] :rolleyes:
Most people simply wouldn`t believe the explicitly insulting things that dealership employees said to both my wife and me when we mentioned stuff like Paint Condition when New Car Shopping. Like we were screwy for caring about such stuff on cars costing big $ (and needed to be told so). Why care about us, when some [other individuals] will buy...I mean lease... it without being a PIA?
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Originally Posted by
Stokdgs
Looking at it in Microns works best for me..
Same here, but I suspect we`re in the minority.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Accumulator
Lonnie- Agree with that too :D
But I suppose that if a maker decided to up the build/buy cost to cover doing things (our version of) "right", most customers would buy something else because hey..they don`t worry about that [stuff] :rolleyes:
Most people simply wouldn`t believe the explicitly insulting things that dealership employees said to both my wife and me when we mentioned stuff like Paint Condition when New Car Shopping. Like we were screwy for caring about such stuff on cars costing big $ (and needed to be told so). Why care about us, when some [other individuals] will buy...I mean lease... it without being a PIA?
Mi Hermano, El Accumulator` --
Totally agree with your experiences with some dealership people... They are still, and have been using the 60`s on model of total disregard for good people wanting to know answers to simple questions... The model is move the units, so they quit paying rent on them, at whatever cost - to the buyer - that they can get away with... It is so sad.. The things they do say and try to pull over on people is just appalling...
Once these Honda guys brought 4 different financial "wizards" over to my little cubicle inside the dealership to try to get me to give away my nicer than any vehicle on the lot, Jeep, and I very easily reasoned with them and in the end they had not ground left to stand on.. It was almost funny..
They are so predictable, rude, and insulting, I wonder why they have never, ever, listened to focus groups, etc., and decided, they desperately need a 21st century game plan now..
Dan F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Accumulator
Same here, but I suspect we`re in the minority.
Hermano,
Perhaps because I/we once had work that required us to measure things to the ten/hundred/ thousandths of an inch, we just naturally go that way???
I like that I can see if I just removed 1/2 of a micron, I just want to know again, just how - little - I remove...
DanF
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stokdgs
... The things they do say and try to pull over on people is just appalling... I very easily reasoned with them and in the end they had not ground left to stand on.. It was almost funny..
They are so predictable, rude, and insulting..
Yes, at some point it`s tempting to just amuse oneself with them ;)
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stokdgs
Perhaps because I/we once had work that required us to measure things to the ten/hundred/ thousandths of an inch, we just naturally go that way???
I like that I can see if I just removed 1/2 of a micron, I just want to know again, just how - little - I remove...
DanF
I don`t really have that kind of background...guess I like I microns better because *I* find it easier to work with "big, simple numbers" when holding a scad of `em in my head and calculating on the fly. With Mils it`s all about little changes in whatever-decimal place and ignoring the first few numbers.
SOME people who work in Mils (not anybody here I bet!) are working in very coarse measurements and just hogging off clear as if it were OK. When shopping for ex-LE vehicles, it was common for a seller to say he "only took off a mil or so", and wonder why I immediately asked if they had one that they hadn`t touched yet. Telling a proud guy that his "expertly wetsanded and buffed to perfection" car is a no-sale *because* of (the reduced thickness of) that flawlessly smooth pretty paint doesn`t go over too well either.
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Mike Phillips, Jason Rose, and myself were discussing this thread yesterday afternoon. The conclusion was saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. They keep figuring out new technologies to lay paint thinner and thinner. Sell 10 million cars in the U.S. saving a few dollars here and there on each car ends up making billions for manufacturers. They can get away easily with thinner paint, because most people will never know. Home builders like doing the same stuff. They cheap out on stuff behind the walls, and then put eye candy inside. Things like granite countertops, tile, fireplace to entice. Then they buy the cheapest windows, hvac, paint, minimum code on everything else.
Obviously paint thickness gauges are going to become even more important than they already have been. Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
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Originally Posted by
Coleroad
... Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
And even later with ones like Ford`s Performance White...be careful around chips on that one.
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coleroad
.... saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. ....
Last plane I was involved in was the Airbus A380. Airbus changed the formula and applications methods of the polymide-epoxy primer used on the plane (and really screwed up the processing houses) and that little change saved somewhere in the area of 200 pounds over the weight of the entire plane (they did a tone of other stuff with sealants as well and really shaved weight on the plane, something like 1600Kg total compared to the pre-existing tech at the time)
That 200 pounds on the exterior of the plane, plus the same changes in the primer on the structure and landing gears added up to a total primer weight savings of close to 600 pounds.... 2 extra passengers worth of weight
M
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coleroad
Mike Phillips, Jason Rose, and myself were discussing this thread yesterday afternoon. The conclusion was saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. They keep figuring out new technologies to lay paint thinner and thinner. Sell 10 million cars in the U.S. saving a few dollars here and there on each car ends up making billions for manufacturers. They can get away easily with thinner paint, because most people will never know. Home builders like doing the same stuff. They cheap out on stuff behind the walls, and then put eye candy inside. Things like granite countertops, tile, fireplace to entice. Then they buy the cheapest windows, hvac, paint, minimum code on everything else.
Obviously paint thickness gauges are going to become even more important than they already have been. Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
Thanks for your post, Coleroad !
I believe that the "time" will be sooner when all those vehicles come in with peeling clearcoat because of dealership grinding it all off to start, then people who hit it again without measuring at all, etc...
The auto manufacturers will hide behind the dealerships who will of course, do everything to get out of any responsibility, etc., for as long as possible, hoping that the (former) customer will give up and just go away...
Of course, then, they will have to deal with those nasty class action lawsuits...
It is amazing that as things change, people , Accounting, etc., find more ways to make money and apparently, never take into account the recipients experiences because of this...
And yes, I am sure the coating people are already coming up with new marketing to fit in just nicely with all this.. :) I will I am sure, be hearing all about it when I go to SEMA the end of October.. :)
Speaking of Homebuilders -- the absolute goldmine for them was when they switched over to PEX plastic plumbing... A huge goldmine..
Never mind, it all starts leaking around year 14 or so..... "Oh, but it is so much better than copper".... :) But copper goes perhaps twice that 14 years or more and probably it`s still ok..
How many people who have copper plumbing are saying today - " all these fittings throughout my house in the ceiling are now leaking, costing me thousands of dollars to fix".....
How many people who have that dreaded PEX crap in their ceilings are saying those words? Tens of thousands... :)
Dan F
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike lambert
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
I would say coat thin paint. The coating should cut down on scratches and marring serving as a sacrificial barrier instead of the thin paint taking the first hit. I don’t think many of the dealerships in my area ever use a buffer on a car, new or used.
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According to a PPG rep, the first 10 microns have the most UV protection. And around 50% of UV protection is gone in 5 years. Doesnt leave a lot to work with.
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike lambert
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
At the very least a yearly application of paint protection and although I am only strting to learn about Cermaic coatings I`d say that may be the best option.
also reading through this thread I noticed a post about buying a car and salesman just blowing it off and in fact that is what they do,,,they want to sell you a car and another in 3 or 4 years when that ones is dead so to speak.
I constantly shake my head when our sales dept tells some poor customer that clear doesn`t need to be maintained because it`s there to protect the paint underneath,,,most salesman are backstabbing,egotistical buffoons that don`t know Jack about maintaining a car.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
3Dog
According to a PPG rep, the first 10 microns have the most UV protection. And around 50% of UV protection is gone in 5 years. Doesnt leave a lot to work with.
I`d want to know the details of that "gone in five years" so I could extrapolate real-world expectations from it.
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Going back to Mazda and paint thickness. Mazda`s have on average the thinnest paint systems out of all Japanese manufacturers. They attribute that to better panel stamping quality but somehow i don`t buy it, however in general the industry is moving to thinner systems (either due to better quality of panels, paint systems or cost cutting measures).
Cheers
Sent from my MI MAX using Tapatalk
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
I assume that coating a vehicle`s clear coat/paint ADDS some thickness to the overall exterior surface finish thickness (OESFT) that can be measured quantitatively (IE, physically) with a paint thickness gauge. Why do I ask?
I asked Mike Lambert, What IS an acceptable paint thickness for a new vehicle manufactured today? It should be a KNOWN and published vehicle manufacturer`s specification (IE, value) that can be measured as part of the dealership pre-delivery inspection OR be verified by the customer or an independent inspection service before a new-vehicle buyer takes delivery. But I guess that will never happen.
I only ask because how many customer`s REALLY care about this. I cleaned my wife`s-side nephew`s brand-new Ford F-250 Super Duty truck last year and discovered a small imperfection in the front chrome bumper that was the result of a manufacturing error in the plating process (how it got through inspection at the factory and then at the dealership it beyond me!!). When I pointed it out to him, he took it back to dealership and had them replace the bumper. He told me later of the extraordinary amount of cost for such a warranty claim, but as I explained, when you pay that much money for a new vehicle, it should be perfect and it would rust and look like crap if it was not taken care of, decreasing the value of your truck at some point in time.
Are paint thicknesses (or lack thereof) a ticking time bomb in new vehicle appearance down the road after the new car warranty is expired? Sounds like it is.
Can it be mitigated with a good, quality coating? Don`t know because time will tell (witness GM water-based clear-coating failures in the late 80`s and early 90`s and resulting consumer litigation). Sounds like a manufacturer-to-have-dealership-applied-coatings "opportunity"(IE scam) to me.
Or at least an "opportunity" for professional vehicle detailers to not only take care of dealership-installed swirls, AND add paint protection with a quality coating to less-than-acceptable manufacturer`s applied surface finishes.
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike lambert
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
Oh Mike. You have some good posts, man!
This thread has me thinking, "Do I even want to work on newer cars?" Right now, not really!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike lambert
I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?
Might be time to change our school of thought on this. But, where do we go from here? It would be nice to use one of those very expensive PTGs with the multi layer readings that can tell us how much clear vs how much base coat, etc. But even knowing the thickness, with TOTAL readings in the 2.5 mils, how much clear do we actually have to work with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lonnie
I assume that coating a vehicle`s clear coat/paint ADDS some thickness to the overall exterior surface finish thickness (OESFT) that can be measured quantitatively (IE, physically) with a paint thickness gauge.
I`ve seen that it does. One guy took readings before any correction. Wet sanded, and polished to look amazing. Then 2 coats of Modesta (sp?) and readings were taken after. I don`t remember the actual numbers, but adding the coating did in fact add mils/microns back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lonnie
Are paint thicknesses (or lack thereof) a ticking time bomb in new vehicle appearance down the road after the new car warranty is expired? Sounds like it is.
I worry about this. I did a guy`s repainted Porsche and we discussed this. My Yaris was already going through clear coat failure (peeling), and he was thinking his newer Toyota pick-up would eventually suffer a similar fate. A couple of years later, he started seeing the paint fade (his is white) and before things got worse, he had it wrapped.
I`m spending way more time on my wife`s 2014 Kia Sportage to avoid similar fate to hers. So far, seems like it`s going good.
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Re: This is why you measure paint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike lambert
I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?
Holy Cow, Mike !! That is 63.5 Microns!!!!! I hate having to work on anything less than 100 microns...
Dan F
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The hybrids from Asia have been the worst, what scares me is the fixes on the assembly line, coupled with dealership fixes and pre, the n the free washes !