Learning curve with a Rotory

**Todd@RUPES** · 03-22-2010, 05:48 AM

Yes it is completely normal to create holograms when using a rotary polisher, infact you `always` create holograms when using a rotary polisher, the only question is whether your eyes can see them or not.

When using more aggressive pads/polishes the hologramming effect will be more noticable then it will with a finer pad/polish. Most ultra fine pads and polishes will create a hologram free looking finish (they are still there since holograms are caused by the repeated pattern of ultra fine marring and you are rubbing abrasives across the paint).

When you are polishing you always want to create a better looking surface (with few exceptions) then the one you started with.

So M105/Orange might leave some moderate holograms, then M205/White should remove these holograms (but may leave some faint holograms of its own). At this point you can try M205 on a finishing pad (which I would have tried first) to see how it looks, but with M205 you may need a DA to remove the holograms completely.

If you are finishing on a rotary polisher I highly recommend finishing with a dedicated fininshing pad, such as a black or red foam, as more aggressive pads may increase the level of marring that it is visible.

**Todd@RUPES** · 03-22-2010, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Stokdgs

I have used Rotary Buffers for probably more years than most on this forum and I dont ever create swirls, holograms, or any of this stuff.

I was interested in this quote, probably because I am reading it incorrectly. Are you saying that even when you use a wool pad and compound you never get buffer swirl/holograms, or are you saying that when you are done there are not buffer swirl/holograms?

As you and I know, experience (past a certain level) means nothing because there are a lot of guys who think they are doing a great job for the last 30 years but what they really have is 3 months of experience x 120.

My advice is to:

Know what type of paint you are going to be working on if possible - is it really hard or a softer clear on top

I personally never care about the paint I am working on (in advance) because after a couple of minutes I will know exactly what the paint is.

Keep the buffer moving the entire time it is on the paint surface, except when you start it.

Great advice, although how fast you move the polisher over the paint will depend on your specific goals. If you are doing very fine polishing or heavy cutting you may find yourself going very slowly over the paint. I often move a rotary slower then I move a PC, and I move a PC slow.

Use clean lubricated pads

I agree with the clean part, I very rarely add any lubricant to my pads, as this will change the way the polish works or can cause the abrasives to clump together. I like a clean, near dry pad.

Use enough light so that you can actually see the material "flashing" and then starting to dry. You want to work the material (if it is a diminishing abrasive) until the abrasives have broken down, working past that point may allow the polish to continue to cut (slightly) but can reduce the quality of the finish on some paints as abraded paint will contaminate the polish and cause it to act more aggressive.

Some polishes shouldn`t be worked until flashing, and some polishes (Menzerna PO85u for example) will never flash. The flash point is usually a result of the type of mineral oil in the product.

Use slower speeds except at the polishing/jeweling stage where you can run it up to say "3" on a Makita9227c.

I use higher speeds, usually 1600-2000 RPM for most polishing on a rotary, and I use a fair amount of pressure.

In my experience, any of the holograms, swirls, etc., in the paint that one creates is because of dirty, dry, drying pads, and if the surface is not cleaned and clayed, this also adds more junk that gets swirled around.

Polishing with a rotary (moving abrasive material in a repeated circular pattern) always creates holograms in the technical sense. Even with the finest polish, pad, and most experienced user the abrasive material will leave very fine marring. The goal is to make it so that you cannot see the holograms with the naked eye. This why jeweling can make an other wise perfect looking finish better, because the marring that you don`t see is refined even further.

I will always use a Rotary first choice because its much faster, but it also has its limitations on smaller areas, around any rubber trim, etc., where a smaller pad on a Random Orbital is easier to use and control, but just takes longer to get the same result.

A rotary is not always faster. I hope you don`t take this as picking on you Dan, I just though it was interesting how people have completely different views on polishing and wanted to offer a counter point. As it is has been said, there are many ways to skin a cat!

Cheers.

**imported_Roadrunner** · 03-22-2010, 09:36 AM

Nice discourse Dan/Todd... lots of very useful information there, thank you!

I can`t think of time I`ve ever done compounding/aggressive polishing with a rotary and didn`t install my own set of holograms in a finish. The first time it happened I was pretty upset and soon realized that the next step... a finer polish and pad, with either a rotary or a PC, would clean things up; with further refinement by using a rotary/85rd and a black or red pad to finish: ie, "jeweling."

The thing to remember with a rotary is to slow it down towards the end of the polish cycle and keep the pressure feather light, just the weight of the polisher. That will minimize the hologram effect but with an aggressive pad/polish combo it still won`t be eliminated altogether.

Just don`t have a customer walk in to your shop, or work area, right after compounding... they`re likely to have a bit of a panic attack!

**imported_Stokdgs** · 03-22-2010, 02:01 PM

Tucson - You are welcome ! Glad to give you some of my personal experiences with these tools and products. Hope you take the info here from all of us and find your best process for your needs.

Gary, - You are welcome!

Todd - Thanks for all your comments - My Dad put a rotary in my hands 52 years ago when I was 10 years old, and I worked in his Garage and our Body Shop there pretty much every weekend, holiday, etc., until I left home.
I worked for a couple of high-end body shops in California after I got out of the Military as a Painter, and back then, unless you had an Apprentice, you did all the steps, including the buffing..

I might know what I`m doing by now, even if I only did it a few months a year..

Dan F

**Tucson buffer** · 03-22-2010, 10:07 PM

Dan...Again thank you for your input...and also to Todd. As I have said previously, this forum has really helped me gather very good information and direction. Dan, I`ll be back in my home state this May to see in our new Grandbaby. Would love to catch up with you and talk shop if you have time. Give me an E-mail and let`s see if we can get together...take care

**imported_Stokdgs** · 03-22-2010, 10:22 PM

Steve,

You are welcome, glad I could offer some of my experiences to you - hope it all works out for you.

So you are from Washington ? Wow ! I thought I was the only guy from here !

You and yours are so welcome to come by when you come up in May ! We live less than 1/4 mile off of Exit-10 on the 405 Freeway, north of SeaTac, so call us if you want a ride, etc., ok?

Would be glad to get together with you guys anytime while you are up here.

I will PM you with our email address and address info..

Dan F

**imported_Stokdgs** · 03-22-2010, 10:28 PM

Steve,

Sent you a PM

Dan F

**imported_Clark** · 03-24-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by th0001

I was interested in this quote, probably because I am reading it incorrectly. Are you saying that even when you use a wool pad and compound you never get buffer swirl/holograms, or are you saying that when you are done there are not buffer swirl/holograms?

As you and I know, experience (past a certain level) means nothing because there are a lot of guys who think they are doing a great job for the last 30 years but what they really have is 3 months of experience x 120.

I personally never care about the paint I am working on (in advance) because after a couple of minutes I will know exactly what the paint is.

Great advice, although how fast you move the polisher over the paint will depend on your specific goals. If you are doing very fine polishing or heavy cutting you may find yourself going very slowly over the paint. I often move a rotary slower then I move a PC, and I move a PC slow.

I agree with the clean part, I very rarely add any lubricant to my pads, as this will change the way the polish works or can cause the abrasives to clump together. I like a clean, near dry pad.

Some polishes shouldn`t be worked until flashing, and some polishes (Menzerna PO85u for example) will never flash. The flash point is usually a result of the type of mineral oil in the product.

I use higher speeds, usually 1600-2000 RPM for most polishing on a rotary, and I use a fair amount of pressure.

Polishing with a rotary (moving abrasive material in a repeated circular pattern) always creates holograms in the technical sense. Even with the finest polish, pad, and most experienced user the abrasive material will leave very fine marring. The goal is to make it so that you cannot see the holograms with the naked eye. This why jeweling can make an other wise perfect looking finish better, because the marring that you don`t see is refined even further.

A rotary is not always faster. I hope you don`t take this as picking on you Dan, I just though it was interesting how people have completely different views on polishing and wanted to offer a counter point. As it is has been said, there are many ways to skin a cat!

Cheers.

It`s quite scary just how similair your counter points were to mine Todd - I agree with just about every single word!

**Ekarat** · 04-20-2010, 10:27 AM

Thanks Tucson for raising problem and all advices. These are very valuable, i always got something from TID and really useful for my work.

Cheers,

**BIOLINK** · 05-01-2010, 08:49 PM

I know this is an older thread but I just saw it. If my .02 counts, I like to follow with PO85RD on a DA just to be sure. I`ve had really good luck with PO85RD and my DA.

And to Todd`s point about knowing the paint, You are right! In a few minutes you will know what the paint is doing! Be prepared to switch polishes after a test if you don`t like what the polish is doing.

Polish on!

:White Horse: