Audi Paint... Need some help!

[JVD]

2001 Silver S4

Paint is in relatively *ok* condition. I want it to be better. It is definitely not trashed though. Typical swirls and various RIDS.

The problem I am having is that even with M105 + cyan hydro-tech the cut is just not enough using a 7424XP. It gets better with each pass but it seems like I would spend forever trying to get it right. I was going to coat with EXO V2 this weekend but if I can`t get the finish the way I want it now I figure I should wait.

I have tried MF pads and they seem to cut a bit quicker but nothing mind blowing. The paint seems SO hard... especially when I compare it to my previous Subaru.

If I want to cut FAST is the only answer a rotary? The more I experiment with the paint the more it seems that is the case. I don`t want to have to do 5 passes over every panel just to get an acceptable finish. I`ve always been a firm believer of having the right tool for the job and this seems like an instance in which I am ill-prepared.

Any input/guidance is appreciated!

[Stokdgs]

How much experience do you have correcting paintwork with the PC ?

What size pad/s are you using for this Audi A4?

Tell us exactly how you are using the PC, Meguiars 105, and the Lake Country Cyan Hydro-Shred pad??

Audi paint of this year and subsequent years got increasingly harder.. It cannot even be compared to soft Subaru paint..
Dan F

[JVD]

I have corrected several personal/family vehicles with the PC. I`m not in the business. I simply like to keep vehicles looking nice.

Pads are 5.5" hydro-tech. This machine does not have enough power for 6.5" pads when correcting in my experience.

Speed 6 on the PC with lots of pressure. Roughly 4 section passes on a 2` x 2` area. Anything more than that and it starts dusting like crazy.

[Stokdgs]

JVD-
Thanks for your reply..

The whole key to getting great paint correction is pad rotation, and that being said, the smaller 5" backing plate and appropriate size pad would be the best bet, as you are already doing.

Secondly, a lot of pressure is also necessary with this combination as well, and you are doing this too.

The only thing you can improve on is a little moisture on the Meguiars 105 to help it work longer.

I have been able to get it go pretty much away, with no dusting, and afterwards, great gloss, by keeping it a little moist-especially right after it starts working and then dries up and wants to quit..

I am one of the few Rotary Power users here and of course, this machine used properly can give incredible correction in a short time using pressure and even moderate speeds.

I run a little product on the same Cyan pad you use, same size, with a spray or two of something to give the product a longer work time, press it down pretty hard and move it slowly, watching the result, and stopping before it dries up and starts to dust..

Did you claybar and clean the paintwork as good as possible before you started the process? The reason I ask is because the more embedded ga-ga you remove from the paint, the better the compound can work on that surface.. But it is still needful to know, that even with the extra cleaning, there will still be more embedded stuff that will come out of some paintwork and it will show up on your pad, and it will not be the color of the paint, which has clear coat on it anyway..

If you are tied to this equipment only, then I think it is going to take a longer time than you anticipated.. The only thing that might help speed it up is to get a more aggressive foam pad - believe the Lake Country Yellow Foam pad might be the most aggressive pad out there... Not sure, but you can check the store at the top of this page and see..

Microfiber pads - not very rotary friendly so I cant say much about them, but others here love them... They need to be cleaned really frequently so the fibers dont lay down flat as much, and for me, the backing separates from too much heat that a Rotary can generate rather quickly..

Where do you live? Perhaps there is someone on here or another Forum that you can talk to about this at a local level...

Good luck with this !
Dan F

[JVD]

Thanks very much for the help!

JVD-
Thanks for your reply..

The whole key to getting great paint correction is pad rotation, and that being said, the smaller 5" backing plate and appropriate size pad would be the best bet, as you are already doing.

Secondly, a lot of pressure is also necessary with this combination as well, and you are doing this too.

Ya, even with, what I perceive to be, quite a bit of pressure the pad is spinning well. I have tried 6.5" CCS pads in the past and it was a very different story.

The only thing you can improve on is a little moisture on the Meguiars 105 to help it work longer.

I have been able to get it go pretty much away, with no dusting, and afterwards, great gloss, by keeping it a little moist-especially right after it starts working and then dries up and wants to quit..

Good to know. I will try to spritz the pad every once in a while. Is it a huge problem if it starts dusting/drying in the cutting phase? I would think the fear of dry buffing would be instilling more fine swirls. I don`t have enough experience to know though...

I am one of the few Rotary Power users here and of course, this machine used properly can give incredible correction in a short time using pressure and even moderate speeds.

I run a little product on the same Cyan pad you use, same size, with a spray or two of something to give the product a longer work time, press it down pretty hard and move it slowly, watching the result, and stopping before it dries up and starts to dust..

Again, I appreciate your input on technique.

Did you claybar and clean the paintwork as good as possible before you started the process? The reason I ask is because the more embedded ga-ga you remove from the paint, the better the compound can work on that surface.. But it is still needful to know, that even with the extra cleaning, there will still be more embedded stuff that will come out of some paintwork and it will show up on your pad, and it will not be the color of the paint, which has clear coat on it anyway..

The car was clayed a few months ago. I used tarx and ironx this go around and clayed again where I felt it needed. The paint was already very clean though. Mostly tar build up on the lower 1/4 of the car.

If you are tied to this equipment only, then I think it is going to take a longer time than you anticipated.. The only thing that might help speed it up is to get a more aggressive foam pad - believe the Lake Country Yellow Foam pad might be the most aggressive pad out there... Not sure, but you can check the store at the top of this page and see..

Microfiber pads - not very rotary friendly so I cant say much about them, but others here love them... They need to be cleaned really frequently so the fibers dont lay down flat as much, and for me, the backing separates from too much heat that a Rotary can generate rather quickly..

Where do you live? Perhaps there is someone on here or another Forum that you can talk to about this at a local level...

Good luck with this !
Dan F

I`m never really tied to any equipment. I prefer to use what works... and more importantly, what works most efficiently. I can be somewhat impatient and I don`t find the PC to be the smoothest machine in the world. It gets fatiguing when I have to compound the panel several times over just to get 70% correction.

Does a rotary work THAT much quicker? Perhaps my expectations are too high. I watch lots of videos to learn and make sure I`m not doing anything correctly. I often see 90% correction from one round of compounding.

[Stokdgs]

JVD -
You have to have almost enough pressure to stop the pad from rotating.

Yes, if the compound is drying up really fast (like Meguiars 105 has always done), then it has shut down working - the reason why I years ago, started spraying something on the pad to keep it working until it really broke down and came out glossy. You want to extend the working time so it will do all it has been formulated to do. This goes for any compound, polish, etc., in my experience...

It is still going to be very slow, because of the hardness of your paint, not using the most aggressive pad, and not getting the optimum performance out of Meguiars 105..

Do you have any Menzerna Compounds ? They were made especially for the harder ceramic-clear paint that Mercedes first developed to be able to work through the hardness and get it corrected quickly on the Assembly Lines at the Auto Factories.. Oh, and they only use air powered Rotary machines for correcting paint defects quickly..

You might just see if you can get the Menzerna SF400 I believe. It is the one that cuts bad German Paint quickly and finishes very nicely..

There are a couple of Spam virus things on this Forum right now so I cannot access the store...

This compound that is kind of an equivalent to Meguiars 105, and with with the most aggressive foam pad,and then a finer pad like the Cyan you already have, or even finer, the Tangerine pad, with the other polishing compound, Menzerna PO203S...

Lots of people want to get more pad rotation and more direct pad rotation instead of random orbital, so they have gone to the Flex 3401VRG from years ago but still a great machine, or the newest Rupes M21 machine with the 5" backing plate and the washer mod to allow more pad rotation.. (remember what I said earlier about pad rotation?

Yes, a Rotary will correct very quickly and beautifully, but you need to know how to use it - you don`t just pick it up and start using it correctly...

It is possible to use it very badly and put a lot of swirls and bad marring into paintwork and hard to believe, but some people insist this is ok and actually tell their Clients that the swirls are good and mean that their vehicle was really Detailed!!! Nothing could ever be so far from the truth !!!

A Rotary used correctly will correct quickly leaving the paint very clear and depending on the pad and product combo, it can be very, very, glossy..

I personally hate the vibration alone from any of machines out there and only have used a couple of them (Flex3401VRG and Meguiars G110V2) for doing easy tasks and my 2 Rotaries do everything else.

It would always be good if you can find a good Detailer or someone who knows how to properly use a Rotary, to show you how to do it and not get any swirl marks in the process..

Where do you live ? If you are in the Pacific Northwest, anywhere close to Seattle, I would be glad to show you how to use one...

Dan F

[JVD]

Unfortunately, I am in Canada. I really appreciate the offer, however!

I have access to most anything if I really want. I will keep the Menzerna stuff in mind.

Tomorrow I`m going to give it another shot on a fresh panel and do a 50/50 to see how much correction I`m actually getting. From what I can see it`s almost like I`m smoothing the edges of the deeper(relatively speaking) scratches and removing a bit of swirls. If that makes any sense.

If I`m just not happy in the end I`ll look into a new machine... Maybe Flex 14-2-150.

[Stokdgs]

Unfortunately, I am in Canada. I really appreciate the offer, however!

I have access to most anything if I really want. I will keep the Menzerna stuff in mind.

Tomorrow I`m going to give it another shot on a fresh panel and do a 50/50 to see how much correction I`m actually getting. From what I can see it`s almost like I`m smoothing the edges of the deeper(relatively speaking) scratches and removing a bit of swirls. If that makes any sense.

If I`m just not happy in the end I`ll look into a new machine... Maybe Flex 14-2-150.

JVD -

If you are in BC, there is a really good Detailer who has a business and a website and used to sell product out of Maple Valley, BC, I think is the city.. He used to post on here but I think he has been really busy. I will try to find out where he went and get his info for you..

I Have the Flex 14-2-150 Rotary ! Its pretty good ! I found it compared to my Makita 9227c, much smaller, lighter, and that of course means not as big an electric motor.. It is loud - makes a lot of gear noise..

It will work pretty good I think but I need horsepower every day so the Makita 9227C has all I need and I dont think I could ever lean on it hard enough to stop it from running - this is good..

If you decide to go Rotary, the most important thing to remember - keep it moving, watch edges and anything that does not have paint on it - like plastics and rubber, and keep the pad flat as much as possible, to help avoid introducing swirls, etc., into the paint. I think part of that messy stuff also comes from using "production products" that are designed to quickly knock down a little of the defects and fill in the rest with kaolin clay fillers, so it "looks" like your paint is corrected - until you wash it and all the clay fillers wash out and the paint is now perhaps just a little improved, and maybe they gave you a bunch of swirls as a free gift!

I use masking tape to quickly tape off certain things like I mentioned so that I dont have to worry if the machine accidently gets too close. Some plastics and rubber are not affected too much but a lot more are, and I dont want to have to remember which are which.

You just have to tell yourself that you are Not going to go near those dangerous places and then dont go near them..

It will take all of your attention, not just part of it, if you want to do a good safe, beautifully clear and glossy job..No multi-tasking..

Good luck !
Dan F

[pwaug]

Before going to a Rotary have you thought about moving up to MF cutting pads and M101?

[mjlinane]

I have had great results with Surbuf pads. With those, use less pressure. I might even recommend 6" pads to assure you don`t apply too much pressure.

Once m105 starts to dry, spritz with distilled water to extend working time.

[JVD]

I may try the MF pads again with M105. The only MF pads my local guy had was 6.5" Optimum... They were good. Too big for this machine though.

I don`t want to keep buying more products just try out and not get the results I want. I almost could have payed for a Makita by now trying different combos...

[Ronkh]

even though you don`t want more "work time", the jump to rotary is gonna be more expensive than you think. (you`re gonna have to practice on something)

my suggestions

m101 or pb master cut with some decent pads

[JVD]

Thanks for the help everyone. I did the whole car attempting to correct as much as I could. Definitely not as perfect as I would like but better. Just wanted to get it decent and get some protection on it. Decided to save the EXO V2 for now as the paint still needs some work. 845 will have to do for the time being.

I`m going to order up some ~5" MF cutting discs and try again when I get a chance. Maybe pick up some Menzerna compound/polish as well. I haven`t yet given up on my machine.

[Stokdgs]

JVD -

I am sure that the Menzerna compound or Sonax ProfilLine 4/6 will work great on your Audi paint as I use these all the time, and have never had an issue getting perfect clarity - but then again, I only use Rotary Power...

Collinite`s 845 Insulator Wax is a great product and protects for a good while too..

The PC older version and the newer version will work; it just takes more time and the right pad and product combination and a lot of patience..

Did you tell us what part of Canada you live in ?

Good Luck with this !
Dan F

[JVD]

JVD -

I am sure that the Menzerna compound or Sonax ProfilLine 4/6 will work great on your Audi paint as I use these all the time, and have never had an issue getting perfect clarity - but then again, I only use Rotary Power...

Collinite`s 845 Insulator Wax is a great product and protects for a good while too..

The PC older version and the newer version will work; it just takes more time and the right pad and product combination and a lot of patience..

Did you tell us what part of Canada you live in ?

Good Luck with this !
Dan F

It seems I ignored your question multiple times. Lol.

Calgary, Alberta!