Mr. Todd Helme???

**ZL1Mark** · 11-26-2011, 04:22 AM

I read in an article in which you stated that 106FA uses the finest abrasives of any Menzerna polish. Ok, then why is 85rd considered a lighter polish? Also, you mentioned that 106FF had some issues with some soft paint. Does 106FA have the same issues with some soft paint?

Thanks.

**Bunky** · 11-26-2011, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by 07 z-oh-6

I read in an article in which you stated that 106FA uses the finest abrasives of any Menzerna polish. Ok, then why is 85rd considered a lighter polish? Also, you mentioned that 106FF had some issues with some soft paint. Does 106FA have the same issues with some soft paint?

Thanks.

The Menzerna rep told me the abrasives in 106FA are identical to 85RD. The only different is that 106FA has 2x as many so it will cut more but finish identically.

**ZL1Mark** · 11-26-2011, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Bunky

The Menzerna rep told me the abrasives in 106FA are identical to 85RD. The only different is that 106FA has 2x as many so it will cut more but finish identically.

Al comes through again!

Just a quick thought, if 106FA has twice as many abrasives, will it take longer to break down? Also, if it has more abrasives, it`s cutting the surface more, so how could it finish identically?

**SuperBee364** · 11-26-2011, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by 07 z-oh-6

Al comes through again!

Just a quick thought, if 106FA has twice as many abrasives, will it take longer to break down? Also, if it has more abrasives, it`s cutting the surface more, so how could it finish identically?

Because the size of the abrasives is identical, it will leave the exact same final scratch pattern in the paint.

**SuperBee364** · 11-26-2011, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by 07 z-oh-6

I read in an article in which you stated that 106FA uses the finest abrasives of any Menzerna polish. Ok, then why is 85rd considered a lighter polish? Also, you mentioned that 106FF had some issues with some soft paint. Does 106FA have the same issues with some soft paint?

Thanks.

With a rotary, I`ve had issues with 106FF, 106FA, and 85rd finishing out well on soft paints. But again, that`s with a rotary. A lot of guys say that 106FA and 85rd finish out well on soft paint with a DA, but I`ve never tried it.

**ZL1Mark** · 11-26-2011, 10:59 AM

If they both finish identical, why not go with the one that has more cut? Sure, the 85rd will abrade less clear coat, but they`re both very fine polishes, so it can`t be THAT big of a difference. I still wonder if 106FA takes longer to break down because there`s more abrasives?

**Concours.John** · 11-26-2011, 11:04 AM

The main thing is 106fa is designed for hard ceramic clears. I could see that if rotation and pressure was not kept adequate with a da you could see marring. I`ve found you can break 106fa down with a da but it does work easier with a rotary.

**ZL1Mark** · 11-26-2011, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Concours.John

The main thing is 106fa is designed for hard ceramic clears. I could see that if rotation and pressure was not kept adequate with a da you could see marring. I`ve found you can break 106fa down with a da but it does work easier with a rotary.

How about with 85rd?

**SuperBee364** · 11-26-2011, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by 07 z-oh-6

If they both finish identical, why not go with the one that has more cut? Sure, the 85rd will abrade less clear coat, but they`re both very fine polishes, so it can`t be THAT big of a difference. I still wonder if 106FA takes longer to break down because there`s more abrasives?

I once had a bit of a discussion with Rydawg about using Menzerna polishes, especially 106FF, 106FA, and 85RD. Here`s a summary about what he said:

1. Make sure the paint is *completely* clean of any residues. Even QD residues.

2. Work it loooong. Really long. Seriously... Loooooooong.

I spent a long time (pun unintended) working on point 2. Again, this is with a rotary, but anyway...

Rydawg told me that most guys don`t work menz finishing polishes long enough. Menz polishes take quite a while to break down, even with a rotary. Most guys work the polish til it goes clear, then stop. While that works with most traditional diminishing abrasive polishes, you`re leaving gloss on the table if you stop here with Menz finishing polishes.

Work it til it goes clear, then keep working it. Eventually, it will go *super* clear. To the point that it looks like there`s baby oil on your paint. That`s how far you want to go. Once the polish looks like baby oil, stop. Remove the oily residue. Do an IPA wipe. If the paint looks as glossy with the residue removed as it did with the oily residue on it, you`ve hit max gloss. If not, do another application, and repeat the process til you can`t tell the difference between gloss levels with the polish residue on it/off it.

Sometimes you won`t get enough working time out of the first application to work it this long; it might start drying out on you before you can turn it into baby oil. If that happens, just add a bit more polish. Don`t remove the residue, just add a bit more and keep working it.

Eventually, you`ll get enough working time to work it til it looks like baby oil. Going for max gloss with Menz polishes isn`t exactly a time saver, but the results can be well worth the additional time spent.

On a nice hard clear, like say an `07 vette (

), you can really jewel it up to an unreal level with a rotary and a menz finishing polish.

The same technique can be used on soft paints, too (with a rotary), as long as you use FPII instead of one of the ceramiclear rated polishes.

**Concours.John** · 11-26-2011, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by 07 z-oh-6

How about with 85rd?

Post #9 hit the nail on the head. Thanks Superbee!

**Todd@RUPES** · 11-26-2011, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by 07 z-oh-6

I read in an article in which you stated that 106FA uses the finest abrasives of any Menzerna polish. Ok, then why is 85rd considered a lighter polish? Also, you mentioned that 106FF had some issues with some soft paint. Does 106FA have the same issues with some soft paint?

Thanks.

I have spoken to a Menzerna rep as well as a gentlemen from Germany who used to package the products and sell them as concepts to the OEM market.

PO106FF/FA used/uses a finer abrasive and is new technology, compared to PO85rd (which in Europe is in the PO83 series). I was also told that PO83 (SIP) and PO85rd use the same abrasivses, not 106FF/FA. Ultimately it doesn`t matter, what matters is how the products work in relation to the methods used and application method.

So moving away from the confusion, let`s address the hypothetical`s.

Can a polish with a more aggressive abrasive finish better then a polish with a finer abrasive? Yes because there are a lot of factors that determine how a polish finishes (or the scratch pattern left behind). The action of the abrasivse, are they attaching to the pad, or are they dislodging and rolling across the surface. How slippery is the carrier oils? When they fracture what is their crystal shape? Abrasive grains can be spheres, ovals, rectangles, pyramids, rombuses, and anything in between. Ultimately we want an even finish with little variation in the high spots and low spots, the type of abrasive is important, but just one of the factors.

If you increase the amount of abrasives (solids) will it effect cut, time, and finish? Yes of course. More abrasives (in the same carrier oil solution) is going to decrease the amount of lubricants relative to the amount of abrasives, so each individual abrasive is going to cut more. Since you are removing more paint per given surface area, you are going to have more abraded paint contaminating the polishing surface, faster. As you polish, abraded paint residue becomes a concern because it usually has a negative impact on the finish quality. Generally speaking you will get an improved rate of cut, more total cut, and a less quality finish. You can compensate for the latter by reducing work times and keeping the pad clean to some degree.

Hope this helps clear up the theories at least.

**Bunky** · 11-26-2011, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Todd Helme

I have spoken to a Menzerna rep as well as a gentlemen from Germany who used to package the products and sell them as concepts to the OEM market.

If true, I guess the Menzerna rep I talked to was not as well informed. It goes to show when you ask a company rep the answer may not be correct.

**Concours.John** · 11-26-2011, 07:38 PM

This is one of those things that don`t represent a supplier but more
how a product is used. Really guys how are you using it.

**Old Pirate** · 11-26-2011, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bunky

If true, I guess the Menzerna rep I talked to was not as well informed. It goes to show when you ask a company rep the answer may not be correct.

Al who was the rep. your talking about?

**Todd@RUPES** · 11-27-2011, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Bunky

If true, I guess the Menzerna rep I talked to was not as well informed. It goes to show when you ask a company rep the answer may not be correct.

I guess ultimately we both may be wrong, which is why I diverged into polishing theory. At the end of the day, what is most important to me, is the results.