Most misunderstood aspect of chemistry

[chet31]

Biochem major here. pH is complex, but some are interested, so I`ll try to explain acid based reactions. pH is part of the equation in predicting how an acid (or base) will react, but of at least equal importance are molarity (concentration), whether it`s buffered (a buffer is something you add to a solution to help it maintain it`s pH when other chemicals act upon it, generally more important with weak acid or bases), and contact (you can pour a gallon of anything on your car, but most of it falls off the car, and only the micro-layer touching the clear coat can react with the clear coat. Or LSP).

Electricity analogy - pH is the "voltage," molarity/buffer/contact/volume is the "amperage." You need both to do damage. I would argue that any car shampoo has neither.

Just a quick note about all of the above. Acid (or base) is finite. Once it reacts, it`s gone. So for an effective acid reaction, you either need lots of it (molarity) or you need to continually replenish it (buffer and contact/amount).

Then there is the issue of what acid works on. Acids react better on inorganics than organics. In our world, inorganics are metals. Organics are things petroleum based - clear coat, sealants, waxes. Vinegar works well on water spots because they are inorganic - the residue left over by hard water (calcium, iron, magnesium, i.e. metals). However, vinegar would take forever to do much damage to an LSP. This is a complicated discussion also, but has to do with the same forces at work whereby water will dissolve road salt (inorganic metal), but won`t dissolve your LSP (organic).

I would go further than Dr. G and say that anything pH 4-10 is essentially neutral. Even then, something like vinegar has a pH of 2.4, does that scald your skin? No. pH 2.4 isn`t that crazy, plus vinegar has low molarity, is unbuffered, and not enough is going to stick to your skin to bother you. If you hold your hand in a large vat of vinegar, over time, you would start to feel some irritation. But you can`t mimic that situation with your car, and your clear coat or LSP is going to be more impervious to pH than your skin.

So, you wash your car. Even a non-"pH balanced" shampoo has nothing going for it to disturb your clear coat or LSP. It has essentially neutral pH (by my definition), it has low molarity, it`s not buffered, very little stays on your car, and what stays on your car is not there for long. Plus, acids don`t react well with organics to begin with.

Anyway, I warned you it was complex, but in the end, this is why I could not care less what the pH of my shampoo is. If it`s not acidic or basic enough to burn my skin, then the pH is negligible as it concerns my LSP or clear coat. As Dr. G mentioned, the surfactants in shampoos are going to dissolve LSPs far more than any weak acids or bases.

[TacoHerder]

If you use the foam gun like Larry from AMMO does you will always need a foam gun.

[Dr. G]

Bunky,

I misunderstood your question and thought that you are concerned with car wash soaps removing waxes or sealants. But rather you are looking for a product that would remove waxes and sealants in order to prep paint for a different wax/sealants. We have developed a car wash soap for our professional markets that will remove waxes and sealants mainly to prep paint for Opti-Coat. This will be available soon and we might offer it to the consumer markets for the type of application you have described. However, as I mentioned before, the efficacy of this type of product has more to do with detergency (the ability to solublize waxes and oils) than with pH. I hope this addresses your question better.

David,

I was asking about soaps since there is a lot of discussion in detailing community on how to strip waxes and sealants. This is important to some because they believe apply a new wax or sealant should be applied a perfectly clean surface and not have to use a chemical like a pre-wax cleaner to remove it. They would prefer to apply a product in some broadcast manner (like through a foam cannon) to achieve this.

I asked about Optimum soap in highly concentrated form because I would guess you would not comment on other companies` products. Some representing another car product company make a big deal that highly concentrated car soaps STRIP waxes and sealants.

From your response, in Optimum soap, the detergency is increased but still no idea if it will significantly reduce to achieve the goal I mentioned above. Optimum No Rinse does not have detergents so at any dilution it will not affect the wax/sealant.

There is plenty of marketing misinformation and just trying to get your opinion.

[Bunky]

This what closer to answer. I realize each soap formulation different. This is why I asked if Optimum Cash Wash full strength could strip LSP`s just to set some knowledge how strong it is.

[tropicsteve]

ammonia will definitely strip floor wax, wonder if a diluted version will safely work on painted surfaces ? think i`ll let someone else give it a try.

[Alfisti]

Bunky,
We have developed a car wash soap for our professional markets that will remove waxes and sealants mainly to prep paint for Opti-Coat. This will be available soon and we might offer it to the consumer markets for the type of application you have described,

Dr G, any updates on this development?

[LeMarque]

Dr G, any updates on this development?

I asked Michael Stoops about Meguiar`s D114 for this purpose and he said:

"6:1 for full IPA replacement with D114"

Can begin to get a bit pricey for this purpose ...

[Dr. G]

Dr G, any updates on this development?

Bunky,

The RV and Marine Wash is perfect for stripping waxes and sealants and leaves a perfect finish for any new LSP.

[Setec Astronomy]

The RV and Marine Wash is perfect for stripping waxes and sealants and leaves a perfect finish for any new LSP.

Dr. G! As a strip wash, would you use that at the label dilution of 0.5 oz/4 gallons water, or a different dilution? I`ll be waiting for your answer in 2033

[Alfisti]

Bunky,

The RV and Marine Wash is perfect for stripping waxes and sealants and leaves a perfect finish for any new LSP.

Thank you

[Lonnie]

Setec Astronomy:
The "waiting for an answer in 2033" for a response/post from Optimum Polymer Technologies owner and product development chemist Dr.G to the dilution ration threw me for minute as being a mistyped year. Then the arithmetic light came on..Dr.G`s last post was in early August of 2014 for an announcement of a back-then "soon-to-be-released"stripping/prep wash soap for use with its Opti-Coat. Alfisti asked in a follow-up post if their was any news on its release in late March 2015, and then posted "Thank You" for news of the suggested RV and Marine Wash in early January 2024, some 9 years later. If we add that same time difference of 9 years to the present 2024, we arrive at the year 2033! NOW I understand... (then they wonder WHY I am called "Captain Obvious"!! Quit laughing so hard......)

For more information on prep wash soaps, please reference the thread:
Anyone Using a Coating Prep Wash Soap?

[DetailZeus]

What a thread bump

Curious how this jives with the advice that only way to truly strip a sealant is to polish.

[Lonnie]

Well, it is interesting about Optimum Polymer Technologies Dr. G suggestion to using their RV and Marine Wash (Soap) as a prep wash to strip away old sealants and waxes.
LOOOONG before this when Autopian Dave Fermani was working for a company in Florida, he received a 2010 Ford Fusion as a company car and he used a mixture of OPT`s Car Wash Soap and Power Clean APC to strip off any wax or contaminants BEFORE he was to apply the then new OPT coating Opti-Coat to test its durability.
Good info and documentation in this thread from January 2010, if you can get by the PhotoBucket copyright insignia (yes, that fiasco still haunts this forum!)prominently displayed across all his photos.
Reference:GRAND FINALE -Optimum Opti-Coating - Durability Test Review!!!