This is why you measure paint!

[Mike lambert]

Wow ��

[Farmall-luvr]

So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?

At the very least a yearly application of paint protection and although I am only strting to learn about Cermaic coatings I`d say that may be the best option.

also reading through this thread I noticed a post about buying a car and salesman just blowing it off and in fact that is what they do,,,they want to sell you a car and another in 3 or 4 years when that ones is dead so to speak.

I constantly shake my head when our sales dept tells some poor customer that clear doesn`t need to be maintained because it`s there to protect the paint underneath,,,most salesman are backstabbing,egotistical buffoons that don`t know Jack about maintaining a car.

[Mike lambert]

Amen!

[Accumulator]

According to a PPG rep, the first 10 microns have the most UV protection. And around 50% of UV protection is gone in 5 years. Doesnt leave a lot to work with.

I`d want to know the details of that "gone in five years" so I could extrapolate real-world expectations from it.

[PoweredByJenga]

Going back to Mazda and paint thickness. Mazda`s have on average the thinnest paint systems out of all Japanese manufacturers. They attribute that to better panel stamping quality but somehow i don`t buy it, however in general the industry is moving to thinner systems (either due to better quality of panels, paint systems or cost cutting measures).

Cheers

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[Mike lambert]

I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?

[Lonnie]

I assume that coating a vehicle`s clear coat/paint ADDS some thickness to the overall exterior surface finish thickness (OESFT) that can be measured quantitatively (IE, physically) with a paint thickness gauge. Why do I ask?
I asked Mike Lambert, What IS an acceptable paint thickness for a new vehicle manufactured today? It should be a KNOWN and published vehicle manufacturer`s specification (IE, value) that can be measured as part of the dealership pre-delivery inspection OR be verified by the customer or an independent inspection service before a new-vehicle buyer takes delivery. But I guess that will never happen.
I only ask because how many customer`s REALLY care about this. I cleaned my wife`s-side nephew`s brand-new Ford F-250 Super Duty truck last year and discovered a small imperfection in the front chrome bumper that was the result of a manufacturing error in the plating process (how it got through inspection at the factory and then at the dealership it beyond me!!). When I pointed it out to him, he took it back to dealership and had them replace the bumper. He told me later of the extraordinary amount of cost for such a warranty claim, but as I explained, when you pay that much money for a new vehicle, it should be perfect and it would rust and look like crap if it was not taken care of, decreasing the value of your truck at some point in time.

Are paint thicknesses (or lack thereof) a ticking time bomb in new vehicle appearance down the road after the new car warranty is expired? Sounds like it is.
Can it be mitigated with a good, quality coating? Don`t know because time will tell (witness GM water-based clear-coating failures in the late 80`s and early 90`s and resulting consumer litigation). Sounds like a manufacturer-to-have-dealership-applied-coatings "opportunity"(IE scam) to me.
Or at least an "opportunity" for professional vehicle detailers to not only take care of dealership-installed swirls, AND add paint protection with a quality coating to less-than-acceptable manufacturer`s applied surface finishes.

[JustJesus]

So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?

Oh Mike. You have some good posts, man!

This thread has me thinking, "Do I even want to work on newer cars?" Right now, not really!

I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?

Might be time to change our school of thought on this. But, where do we go from here? It would be nice to use one of those very expensive PTGs with the multi layer readings that can tell us how much clear vs how much base coat, etc. But even knowing the thickness, with TOTAL readings in the 2.5 mils, how much clear do we actually have to work with?

I assume that coating a vehicle`s clear coat/paint ADDS some thickness to the overall exterior surface finish thickness (OESFT) that can be measured quantitatively (IE, physically) with a paint thickness gauge.

I`ve seen that it does. One guy took readings before any correction. Wet sanded, and polished to look amazing. Then 2 coats of Modesta (sp?) and readings were taken after. I don`t remember the actual numbers, but adding the coating did in fact add mils/microns back.

Are paint thicknesses (or lack thereof) a ticking time bomb in new vehicle appearance down the road after the new car warranty is expired? Sounds like it is.

I worry about this. I did a guy`s repainted Porsche and we discussed this. My Yaris was already going through clear coat failure (peeling), and he was thinking his newer Toyota pick-up would eventually suffer a similar fate. A couple of years later, he started seeing the paint fade (his is white) and before things got worse, he had it wrapped.

I`m spending way more time on my wife`s 2014 Kia Sportage to avoid similar fate to hers. So far, seems like it`s going good.

[Stokdgs]

I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?

Holy Cow, Mike !! That is 63.5 Microns!!!!! I hate having to work on anything less than 100 microns...
Dan F

[Mike lambert]

The hybrids from Asia have been the worst, what scares me is the fixes on the assembly line, coupled with dealership fixes and pre, the n the free washes !

[Desertnate]

With the average American now hanging on to cars for at least 11~12 years, the thin paint coats can`t be good. Even if left to it`s own devices and not warn away by polishing, I can see the sun and environment eating through a poorly protected car before it`s reached half that age.

Going back to Mazda and paint thickness. Mazda`s have on average the thinnest paint systems out of all Japanese manufacturers. They attribute that to better panel stamping quality but somehow i don`t buy it, however in general the industry is moving to thinner systems (either due to better quality of panels, paint systems or cost cutting measures).

I don`t have scientific proof, but I`m not sure I agree. When parking one daughter`s 2010 Mazda3 next to the other daughter`s 2010 Honda Fit, the Mazda`s paint seems to be far thicker. On the Mazda, insects and rock strikes have taken a few chips out of the clear and paint with almost none going down to the primer or bare metal. In those spots when they catch a nail, you can tell there is some depth. On the Honda, everything goes to the primer or lower and there is no depth to those pits. I also noticed on the side mirrors the paint is so thin in a couple places you can see hints of the primer or base plastic showing though if you get close enough in the right lighting conditions.

[Stokdgs]

I assume that coating a vehicle`s clear coat/paint ADDS some thickness to the overall exterior surface finish thickness (OESFT) that can be measured quantitatively (IE, physically) with a paint thickness gauge. Why do I ask?
I asked Mike Lambert, What IS an acceptable paint thickness for a new vehicle manufactured today? It should be a KNOWN and published vehicle manufacturer`s specification (IE, value) that can be measured as part of the dealership pre-delivery inspection OR be verified by the customer or an independent inspection service before a new-vehicle buyer takes delivery. But I guess that will never happen.
I only ask because how many customer`s REALLY care about this. I cleaned my wife`s-side nephew`s brand-new Ford F-250 Super Duty truck last year and discovered a small imperfection in the front chrome bumper that was the result of a manufacturing error in the plating process (how it got through inspection at the factory and then at the dealership it beyond me!!). When I pointed it out to him, he took it back to dealership and had them replace the bumper. He told me later of the extraordinary amount of cost for such a warranty claim, but as I explained, when you pay that much money for a new vehicle, it should be perfect and it would rust and look like crap if it was not taken care of, decreasing the value of your truck at some point in time.

Are paint thicknesses (or lack thereof) a ticking time bomb in new vehicle appearance down the road after the new car warranty is expired? Sounds like it is.
Can it be mitigated with a good, quality coating? Don`t know because time will tell (witness GM water-based clear-coating failures in the late 80`s and early 90`s and resulting consumer litigation). Sounds like a manufacturer-to-have-dealership-applied-coatings "opportunity"(IE scam) to me.
Or at least an "opportunity" for professional vehicle detailers to not only take care of dealership-installed swirls, AND add paint protection with a quality coating to less-than-acceptable manufacturer`s applied surface finishes.

Lonnie,
Great post !
For sure, if they are indeed putting less and less total paint thickness on vehicles, then the only way to protect what is on there is to carefully remove as little as possible as measured by a good, calibrated meter, and then putting on a coating, or for those who are really rich, and can stand to look at it, clear bra the whole dang thing or for sure, the front end, and perhaps the back end - wherever that particular vehicle`s design gets the most damage from the road, the sun, etc...

And yes, perhaps the auto makers are working out a deal with the dealerships, ref., coatings, etc., but I highly doubt that they even care enough to go to that level to actually want to help them out..
I believe it`s more of a love/hate relationship between the two, and I am so glad I will never be a part of that mess...

Since there appears to be no "watchdog", etc., group sponsored by any form of government, the automakers appear to be able to do whatever they want, and who really cares about the Clients???? And if they are so good at playing the "wait them out and they will all go away, or die game", what will cause them to change now... ever.... ???

I believe if a real poll was taken, there would be a higher number of those that " know nothing or care much about their vehicle, etc.," vs those that know varied amounts and really care about their vehicles, because they are going to keep them forever, etc.. "

And then what about all the outright lies Dealerships tell their Clients ???

I still remember being stopped in a parking lot by a guy who parked next to me in his new, Jet Black, totally swirled up Mercedes, and him asking me why my older, Black Grand Cherokee paint looked so much better in the noon day sun, than his "just Detailed by the Dealership Mercedes"....

When I pointed out the rotary induced defects in his paintwork, he looked at me and said, "The Dealership told me, that is how it is supposed to look after being Detailed".... I gave him a business card and told him, no, that is not how it is supposed to look.. My Jeep paintwork is how its supposed to look ...

Well, the trickle-down effect will eventually get to us, and it will for sure bring us more bizz if we are very careful and invest in tools that protect our Clients from themselves, and us from potential damage from working on their already way, way, too thin, paintwork...

And if it shows up way too thin to begin with, think carefully about touching that paint with any machine at all.. Perhaps just a good cleaning, a good mild claybar, do NOT induce any marring, and see if they care enough to want to invest extra $$$ into a good, proven, Coating that has been around long enough, measured in years, that you know its ability to be there long enough or not...

There are some products that are more of a finishing polish, than a correcting polish, etc., One that comes to mind that I have used before is Optimum Finish.. There are others out there I am sure...These might have to be the way to go, and then still be really careful and you absolutely have to measure, measure, measure, to know what is happening...

Again, this is why I always measure in microns, I measure beforehand to get a baseline, and then re-measure continually until that spot is good, and then move to the next spot and repeat the process.. I want to know and be able to tell the Client, I took off half a micron, 1 micron, as little as possible, and not have to say, "well, I only removed a Mil or 2".. ( 1 Mil = 25.4 Microns)...
Dan F

[Accumulator]

With the average American now hanging on to cars for at least 11~12 years...

Huh, that really surprises me! I`m the *only* person I know who holds onto daily drivers; even people I consider quite financially disadvantaged replace them regularly.

I believe if a real poll was taken, there would be a higher number of those that " know nothing or care much about their vehicle, etc.," vs those that know varied amounts and really care about their vehicles, because they are going to keep them forever, etc.. "

Same opinion here, that`s how people I know IRL are, including the "car guys", when it comes to stuff like cosmetics and having a long-term perspective.

[Desertnate]

Huh, that really surprises me! I`m the *only* person I know who holds onto daily drivers; even people I consider quite financially disadvantaged replace them regularly.

I too was a little surprised it was that many years. I was figuring it would be a bit lower. This article I stumbled arcoss a few weeks ago has some interesting stats.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amer...g-older-2018-8

I`d be curious whether the churn varies by area. Even in my area I see a pretty wide disparity. At work, most of the vehicles I see are probably 5~6 years old, with the cars actually being older than the trucks (contrary to the stats in the article), but in my neighborhood it`s a really mixed bag with a family often having two very widly spaced vehicles, i.e. one being fairly new and one being much older. Income levels in both areas are very similar, though I believe the average age of the owners at work are older than the families in my neighborhood. I`m an outlier simply due to a couple over seas moves and an unfortunate mechanical meltdown a few years ago. I`m well below average with cars ranging from five to eight years old.

Getting this back to the topic at hand, it motivates me even more to keep on top of my vehicles. I don`t plan on unloading any of them any time soon, but with paint that thin I need to make sure they are always protected and be very carefull with my annual-ish refreshes.

[PoweredByJenga]

Good observation on Fit aka Jazz here down under. I must admit I have never measured the paint thickness on that model. I found Mazda3 and CX5 to be thin esp on the latest models. Lexus from Toyota seems to be thickest of all Japanese paint systems. In terms of paint `hardness` if there is such thing, I found that the softer the paint the more prone it is to stone chips.

Cheers

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