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  1. #16

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Mike:
    I think mass vehicle manufacturer`s in general are SO cost-conscious that this is affecting vehicle quality and vehicle safety. I say safety with the GM ignition switch fiasco as a prime example. Let`s face it, vehicles a finite life subject to vehicle warranties. Car batteries are a good example: they last the life of warranty, not the life of the car. Is vehicle paint/clear coat becoming the next "limited warranty" item???
    Maybe it is time for the consumer demand better. That will not happen unless vehicle sales by any manufacturer drops precipitously. It might if a buyer went in to a car dealer with a paint thickness gauge (PTG) and started measuring it on new vehicles, then post the results on social media for all to see and know about. Maybe this thread/post is just the start of such information and, hopefully, a response by manufacturers.
    GB detailer

  2. #17
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    I`m with Jesus on this one - I want to see the closest number measurement of the Total Thickness (since that is what my meter measures), and once I know that number on that spot on the panel, when I re-measure it as I work, I can see exactly how much of 1 micron, etc., I removed...
    I want to remove (as we all do), as - little - as possible, and get acceptable clarity and gloss for the Client at whatever price point he/she is paying for..
    Looking at it in Microns works best for me..
    Dan F

  3. #18

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Lonnie- Agree with that too

    But I suppose that if a maker decided to up the build/buy cost to cover doing things (our version of) "right", most customers would buy something else because hey..they don`t worry about that [stuff]

    Most people simply wouldn`t believe the explicitly insulting things that dealership employees said to both my wife and me when we mentioned stuff like Paint Condition when New Car Shopping. Like we were screwy for caring about such stuff on cars costing big $ (and needed to be told so). Why care about us, when some [other individuals] will buy...I mean lease... it without being a PIA?
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  4. #19

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    Looking at it in Microns works best for me..
    Same here, but I suspect we`re in the minority.

  5. #20
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    Lonnie- Agree with that too

    But I suppose that if a maker decided to up the build/buy cost to cover doing things (our version of) "right", most customers would buy something else because hey..they don`t worry about that [stuff]

    Most people simply wouldn`t believe the explicitly insulting things that dealership employees said to both my wife and me when we mentioned stuff like Paint Condition when New Car Shopping. Like we were screwy for caring about such stuff on cars costing big $ (and needed to be told so). Why care about us, when some [other individuals] will buy...I mean lease... it without being a PIA?
    Mi Hermano, El Accumulator` --
    Totally agree with your experiences with some dealership people... They are still, and have been using the 60`s on model of total disregard for good people wanting to know answers to simple questions... The model is move the units, so they quit paying rent on them, at whatever cost - to the buyer - that they can get away with... It is so sad.. The things they do say and try to pull over on people is just appalling...

    Once these Honda guys brought 4 different financial "wizards" over to my little cubicle inside the dealership to try to get me to give away my nicer than any vehicle on the lot, Jeep, and I very easily reasoned with them and in the end they had not ground left to stand on.. It was almost funny..

    They are so predictable, rude, and insulting, I wonder why they have never, ever, listened to focus groups, etc., and decided, they desperately need a 21st century game plan now..
    Dan F

  6. #21
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    Same here, but I suspect we`re in the minority.
    Hermano,
    Perhaps because I/we once had work that required us to measure things to the ten/hundred/ thousandths of an inch, we just naturally go that way???
    I like that I can see if I just removed 1/2 of a micron, I just want to know again, just how - little - I remove...
    DanF

  7. #22

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    ... The things they do say and try to pull over on people is just appalling... I very easily reasoned with them and in the end they had not ground left to stand on.. It was almost funny..

    They are so predictable, rude, and insulting..
    Yes, at some point it`s tempting to just amuse oneself with them

  8. #23

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    Perhaps because I/we once had work that required us to measure things to the ten/hundred/ thousandths of an inch, we just naturally go that way???
    I like that I can see if I just removed 1/2 of a micron, I just want to know again, just how - little - I remove...
    DanF
    I don`t really have that kind of background...guess I like I microns better because *I* find it easier to work with "big, simple numbers" when holding a scad of `em in my head and calculating on the fly. With Mils it`s all about little changes in whatever-decimal place and ignoring the first few numbers.

    SOME people who work in Mils (not anybody here I bet!) are working in very coarse measurements and just hogging off clear as if it were OK. When shopping for ex-LE vehicles, it was common for a seller to say he "only took off a mil or so", and wonder why I immediately asked if they had one that they hadn`t touched yet. Telling a proud guy that his "expertly wetsanded and buffed to perfection" car is a no-sale *because* of (the reduced thickness of) that flawlessly smooth pretty paint doesn`t go over too well either.

  9. #24
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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Mike Phillips, Jason Rose, and myself were discussing this thread yesterday afternoon. The conclusion was saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. They keep figuring out new technologies to lay paint thinner and thinner. Sell 10 million cars in the U.S. saving a few dollars here and there on each car ends up making billions for manufacturers. They can get away easily with thinner paint, because most people will never know. Home builders like doing the same stuff. They cheap out on stuff behind the walls, and then put eye candy inside. Things like granite countertops, tile, fireplace to entice. Then they buy the cheapest windows, hvac, paint, minimum code on everything else.

    Obviously paint thickness gauges are going to become even more important than they already have been. Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
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  10. #25

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleroad View Post
    ... Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
    And even later with ones like Ford`s Performance White...be careful around chips on that one.

  11. #26

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?

  12. #27

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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleroad View Post
    .... saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. ....
    Last plane I was involved in was the Airbus A380. Airbus changed the formula and applications methods of the polymide-epoxy primer used on the plane (and really screwed up the processing houses) and that little change saved somewhere in the area of 200 pounds over the weight of the entire plane (they did a tone of other stuff with sealants as well and really shaved weight on the plane, something like 1600Kg total compared to the pre-existing tech at the time)
    That 200 pounds on the exterior of the plane, plus the same changes in the primer on the structure and landing gears added up to a total primer weight savings of close to 600 pounds.... 2 extra passengers worth of weight

    M
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  13. #28
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleroad View Post
    Mike Phillips, Jason Rose, and myself were discussing this thread yesterday afternoon. The conclusion was saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. They keep figuring out new technologies to lay paint thinner and thinner. Sell 10 million cars in the U.S. saving a few dollars here and there on each car ends up making billions for manufacturers. They can get away easily with thinner paint, because most people will never know. Home builders like doing the same stuff. They cheap out on stuff behind the walls, and then put eye candy inside. Things like granite countertops, tile, fireplace to entice. Then they buy the cheapest windows, hvac, paint, minimum code on everything else.

    Obviously paint thickness gauges are going to become even more important than they already have been. Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
    Thanks for your post, Coleroad !

    I believe that the "time" will be sooner when all those vehicles come in with peeling clearcoat because of dealership grinding it all off to start, then people who hit it again without measuring at all, etc...
    The auto manufacturers will hide behind the dealerships who will of course, do everything to get out of any responsibility, etc., for as long as possible, hoping that the (former) customer will give up and just go away...

    Of course, then, they will have to deal with those nasty class action lawsuits...

    It is amazing that as things change, people , Accounting, etc., find more ways to make money and apparently, never take into account the recipients experiences because of this...

    And yes, I am sure the coating people are already coming up with new marketing to fit in just nicely with all this.. I will I am sure, be hearing all about it when I go to SEMA the end of October..

    Speaking of Homebuilders -- the absolute goldmine for them was when they switched over to PEX plastic plumbing... A huge goldmine..

    Never mind, it all starts leaking around year 14 or so..... "Oh, but it is so much better than copper".... But copper goes perhaps twice that 14 years or more and probably it`s still ok..

    How many people who have copper plumbing are saying today - " all these fittings throughout my house in the ceiling are now leaking, costing me thousands of dollars to fix".....

    How many people who have that dreaded PEX crap in their ceilings are saying those words? Tens of thousands...
    Dan F

  14. #29
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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike lambert View Post
    So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
    I would say coat thin paint. The coating should cut down on scratches and marring serving as a sacrificial barrier instead of the thin paint taking the first hit. I don’t think many of the dealerships in my area ever use a buffer on a car, new or used.

  15. #30
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    Re: This is why you measure paint!

    According to a PPG rep, the first 10 microns have the most UV protection. And around 50% of UV protection is gone in 5 years. Doesnt leave a lot to work with.
    Ric
    3Dog Garage
    HOGtailing is my business
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