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  1. #1

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    I have been wanting to perform a test showing the actual gloss reading difference between a rotary polisher, a dual action counterbalanced polisher Cyclo, and a dual action forced rotation polisher FLEX for a while now. I finally had some time to perform this test. This car belongs to an employee of mine, and he hadn`t polished his own car in two years or so. First is a picture of the before, and the car definitely had uniform scratching all over the hood. I used orange CCS pads with SIP on all machines, and white CCS pads with Super Finish on all machines. Hood was of course fully clay barred prior to polishing, and cleaned after polishing with Menzerna Top Inspection. I worked all machines and compounds until fully broken down just like I would in real world use, but some RIDS remained. Results are as follows.





    Before



    FLEX



    Cyclo



    Rotary





    The rotary finished with the highest gloss readings, followed by Cyclo, and Flex. I was not surprised by the results, and there is definitely a difference that can be noticed with the eye. The Rotary of course also removed a lot of the small pitting in the paint that was not removed with the other two machines.

  2. #2

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    Nice test! I am not surprised either. But what about the gloss readings before?

  3. #3

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    Thanks, I did not take a before reading, as it can be all over the place when the paint is in bad shape. I would probably read 40-60 gloss units on the hood due to inconsistent oxidation.

  4. #4
    Rasky's Auto Detailing RaskyR1's Avatar
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    Great test John! Thanks for taking the time to do it.





    A lot to ask but it would be nice to see the test go a step further by wet sanding the paint followed by the basic refining steps using just one tool in order to get similar baseline readings. Then do the final jeweling to the paint with the different tools using the same zero cut pads and some PO85RD. I`m sure the rotary will still come out ahead, but it would be interesting if it could be done on both a Honda and an Audi to see how they differ.





    Rasky

  5. #5
    Dan's Avatar
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    Great test! I`m curious if the results would be different if you used a PTG and removed a uniform amount (within reason of course) of clear across the board.

  6. #6

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    JohnKleven- Ah, glad you got a chance to do this, I`ve been looking forward to it!



    Yeah, I too think I see a diff between the finish a Flex 3401 leaves and what I can attain with my other polishers but without the glossmeter, well...you know. Could you readily *see* a diff between the Cyclo and the rotary with your naked eye?



    I too am wondering about how the readings (well, the Cyclo/rotary ones at least) would compare if both finishes were corrected to the same extent.



    I`m not bashing your test in the least, so please don`t get me wrong...but when we discussed this stuff in that other thread, I was wondering how the Cyclo and the rotary would compare when used to final-polish paint that was already corrected to the point of being basically flawless.

  7. #7

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    I think I could definitely see a difference between the 3 with the naked eye, but what really made the rotary stand out is the removal of heavier scratches, and also the removing of some pitting in the paint. It would sure take a very long time to get the same correction from a cyclo, but I still believe the rotary leaves a higher gloss. Obviously this paint is not very high quality on this Chrysler, but on an even softer paint like a black Bentley for example, IMHO the rotary will still finish better. The amount of correction between the Cyclo and Flex was very close. The smaller pads on the Cyclo with nice CCS pads really gives it some nice correction ability. The factory Cyclo pads definitely don`t correct as well as the CCS pads.





    John

  8. #8

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    JohnKleven- Thanks for the additional info.



    Yeah, no question in my mind about the rotary doing better correction for the time/effort involved; I simply don`t get the same, speedy results via Flex/Cyclo/Griot`s/etc. that others do, even with the KBM. When I don`t want to use the rotaries I simply wetsand the nasty stuff rather than spend forever on it.



    On the subject of ultimate gloss, I can`t help but wonder how various things like polish/pad/paint/rotary skill factor in :think: But I guess what matters here is that (as you predicted), you`re getting the best results via your rotary.

  9. #9
    Barry Theal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator
    JohnKleven- Thanks for the additional info.



    Yeah, no question in my mind about the rotary doing better correction for the time/effort involved; I simply don`t get the same, speedy results via Flex/Cyclo/Griot`s/etc. that others do, even with the KBM. When I don`t want to use the rotaries I simply wetsand the nasty stuff rather than spend forever on it.



    On the subject of ultimate gloss, I can`t help but wonder how various things like polish/pad/paint/rotary skill factor in :think: But I guess what matters here is that (as you predicted), you`re getting the best results via your rotary.


    I would say skill level and understanding plays the most part when acheving any high quality finish! Not like Johns a rookie here. John pretty cool rightup for sure. The one thing I would like to see is that exact same readings done on perfectly leveled paint. It obvious that light will be refracted more on paint that isn`t perfectly cut and leveled. I wonder what would happen persay if you took a whole hood and sanded it with 3000 to remove as much imperfections as possible, then compounded with rotory, and finished the paint entirely to the point it was perfect with out burnishing. Then do this test. then alcohol wipe down everything? DO you understand my mumble jumble here?
    Barry E. Theal
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    Founder of Americana Global Inc.


  10. #10

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    That could be an interesting test, but won`t be doing that on a Chrysler anytime soon. I will try this when I get a good wetsanding project. I will still put money on a rotary being glossier, and also looking better in the sun than any d.a.





    John

  11. #11

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    sigh =[ I guess I`ll be looking into getting attachments for my rotary after all...figure buying a new rotary all together might be much for me =[
    Decades ago, Accumulator sneezed on a car. The owner noticed that his car was imbued with something today this substance is called clear coat.

  12. #12

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    Barry Theal- I think you and I are thinking the same thing, but I dunno if I`d start with a 3K finish since I find that to be a *little* of a rough starting point for machines like the Cyclo/Griot`s/etc. Yeah, I know and I take out even 2K with those machines too, but for this test I`d rather start with something where "correction" isn`t part of the picture at all, keeping it all about the "jeweling" effectiveness of those machines (where I bet a rotary *IN THE RIGHT HANDS* will probably still come out on top).



    I`m just curious about what I might be missing out on by not being a rotary-Meister, not that I actually polish much at all these days (sheesh, threads like this make me think my vehicles must look dreadful by Autopian standards ).



    JohnKleven- Heh heh, I can`t help but think that here you went to the trouble to do that test and some of us are already after you to do it again differently



    On the Cyclo, do you think that the counterbalance upgrade makes a functional diff with regard to how well it finishes, or is it merely a matter of being more user-friendly?

  13. #13
    Kevin Brown's Avatar
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    Well, I decided to check out autopia once again... :nervous2:



    I think this was a great idea for a test... just not buying that the rotary will deliver a better result than another machine, or even hand applied liquids for that matter.



    All other things being equal, it comes down to amount of paint removed, the finishing capability of the liquid and applicator, and the expertise level of the dude doing the work.



    As for that gloss meter? It`s useless to you! Can I have it pleeeeze? Love it, :xyxthumbs, and jealous :aww:.

  14. #14
    Kevin Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Brown
    ... the finishing capability of the liquid and applicator, and the expertise level of the dude doing the work...


    Dag-nabit! Pulled an amateur skimming of your info... "same pads, same compounds".



    Even though the material that touches the surface may be the same, the surface area variance can make a big difference in defect removal (as you alluded to), as well as finishing.



    As most of us know, pads can be optimized to work on specific machines, even if the material is the same. Shape, thickness, and diameter make a difference. The type of backing plate we decide to use also affects performance.



    Not trying to discount your efforts at all, and not doubting your abilities... just looking forward to a good discussion.



    Thanks.

  15. #15
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    1st off, I love premise behind the test; however I feel its results are user driven, not end results driven. There are way too many variables that cannot and should not be wrangled as the "end all, be all" of this experiment that some would like to label or conclude as per the findings.



    Can a rotary finish better than a dual action machine......maybe on some paint with some polishes? Per my discussion with a well qualified source at the manufacturer level (that will remain nameless), paint hardness, which can be quite difficult to measure unless you have the appropriate tools (i.e. paint hardness tester), will play a huge factor in the final gloss level one is able to achieve. Soft paint (especially fresh) *can* have a tendency of reacting better (in terms of gloss levels) with a rotary buffer. But, when the playing field (surface) is harder, a dual action machine can and will produce optimal results when paired with the right components (user/product/geometry of the machine).



    With this test, you chose products (SIP/PF) that IMHO don`t work well to level the surface when used with a DA. In your case, I`m sure you are able to level more paint (hence producing a flatter surface as you stated) by increasing the speed of the machine(which I remember you stating prior that you make a practice of working certain Menzerna products such as SIP @ 3000 rpms http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-det...l-wetsand.html ). This also can and will drastically skew the results as an unparalleled force is utilized to correct the defects primarily. The gloss one is able to achieve after is dependant on the defects still remaining within the surface which can take away from the surface reflection being measured. Also, when you tested, I don’t recall you taking multiple measurements along the surface and then averaging them out for comparison purposes. With this test it could be construed as biased if you measured at a low/high variance area to the others.
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

 

 
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