Finishing Quality Of Long Throw Machines

[Todd@RUPES]

Thats a great question. I wondered about that when Jason said it. Where is Todd Helme to explain in his genius type of way?

Here we go… lol…

When we are talking about finish quality, we could likely sum it up simply as what leaves a more level surface. It is important to understand that there is no such thing as a perfectly polished finish… polishing always imparts a scratch pattern on the surface - in order to remove material we have to use abrasives that abrade the surface.

Most polishers fall between 6mm and 21mm’ of stroke/throw/orbit length. What does this mean? The stroke or throw is the diameter from one point of the orbit to the opposing spot. Take a bicycle pedal. If we measure the distance between the pedal when it is at the very bottom of its orbit and the top of its orbit, we would have the stroke length.

In order to examine the effect that orbit length has on the finish we will take each to the extreme and then work to the common lengths. First, imagine you are holding a foam wax pad on the surface of a car. Now imagine you are rubbing in circles similar to the motion Mr. Mygai made famous in “Karate Kid.” Loaded on your pad are tiny abrasives equally spaced 3 mm apart.

If you move in very tiny circles (orbits), perhaps the diameter of the top of a pencil eraser (about 2 mm) what will happen? These tiny circles will begin to burrow into the spots they are repeated rubbed over. The small circles create a “tight” turn or circumference as they are only covering slightly more than 6 mm (pi x 2 mm) for every 360 degrees of turn. This is similar to digging your heel in when you pivot. The combination of focusing your energy into a small area, making a sharp turn, and burrowing in means we will aggressively remove material from isolated spots. The end result is a very uneven surface - hardly the best from a gloss perspective.

Now let’s take the orbit size to the next extreme, and make meter (yard) long orbits. The end result is equally unimpressive for different reasons. The extremely large throw still prevents cross-hatching of the abrasives (spaced 3mm apart) and creates a visible scratch pattern because the marks are linear. Also the area in the center of the orbit size will not even be touched, resulting in a ring the diameter of the pad that has been effected…

So we know that too large of an orbit is ineffective and too small creates an uneven surface. Somewhere in the middle between the extremes is the ideal result we are looking for. So what orbit length creates the best finish?

There are a large number of variables at play. How tightly are the abrasives packed onto the pad, what type of pad is being used, how is the paint reacting to the polishing process, how much speed is being used, etc..

We end up with a dynamic bell curve. The truth is that all of the common orbit lengths tend to work well for finishing quality (larger than 6 mm). However moving larger than the minimum length tends to result in a gentler turn (remember the digging the heel in analogy) as well as removing more material (paint residue and loaded abrasives) from the surface (preventing burrowing).

On most paints, you will not be able notice a difference in gloss when using the different common orbit lengths. However, on difficult (haze-prone) paints you may be able to see a noticeable different - all variables remaining the same. On a difficult repainted G37, if found that with my combination (RUPES Yellow Pad / Keramik Gloss Polish) the 15 and 21 mm BigFoot Polishers produced a noticeably better finish than other tools.

[Swanicyouth]

It`s kind of a paradox I don`t claim to understand.

On the one hand, some people state larger throw machines finish better than smaller throw machines. However, the "smallest throw" machine (zero orbit rotary) also has it`s disciples who claim it finishes better than other tools.

Can anyone explain this?

[RaysWay]

I`ve always said I thought the long throw polishers finish the best. The paint looks like it`s been jeweled after I finish with a long throw polisher.

It`s kind of a paradox I don`t claim to understand.

On the one hand, some people state larger throw machines finish better than smaller throw machines. However, the "smallest throw" machine (zero orbit rotary) also has it`s disciples who claim it finishes better than other tools.

Can anyone explain this?

I think it`s the same reason certain polishes or compounds work better on certain paints in different environments....there`s just a lot of variables and I don`t think anyone is wrong. Some paints finish best with a rotary, some are impossible to finish with a rotary...etc etc etc.

[Accumulator]

.. the 15 and 21 mm BigFoot Polishers produced a noticeably better finish than other tools.

Even better than the Cyclo, huh?

Any discernable (let`s assume "extremely particular observer" ) diff between the 15 and 21? Yeah, I know I`m splitting hairs, but hey...it`s Autopia.

[Junebug]

It`s too bad Mythbusters is on their last season. I would love to see them put all the buffers to a test. Although there are variables such as pads. polishes and of course - the human element. But, I`d bet they could rig up a jig with different machines, all using the same polish and pads and on the same paint. But, then there is the very valid point that certain machines "like" certain pads/speeds/pressure/polish and the hand of the operator has an influence too. The only test I`ve ever heard about was years ago when a guy showed a greater gloss factor after using a rotary.
You know, it`s stuff like this that make me glad I retired from detailing!

[Stokdgs]

Mi Amigo, Junebug -

Im with you on this -

There will be an endless discussion if one cares to keep it up on the merits of each machine`s ability to do _______ and/or_______ better...

Im just happy to use the 1 main tool I have been using since I was a kid and leave it at that...

Think at the end of the day, with all the variables out there with every machine, pad, throw, rotation speed, product, paint type, amount of moisture, technique, pressure, time on the panel, et-cetera, we will all die before this is NEVER solved..

So, I`m just going to go out there and using all the years of experience I have, and make that vehicle look the best it can possibly be, and always be adjusting all of the above for that panel, that vehicle, that day...
Dan F

[Junebug]

Agreed! and for what it`s worth, kicking the detailing to the curb has raised my awareness on other matters, like jeez, my yard has every kind of undesirable weed and bug in it. So, look for me trying to win the most improved yard of the month in the future.

[Stokdgs]

Agreed! and for what it`s worth, kicking the detailing to the curb has raised my awareness on other matters, like jeez, my yard has every kind of undesirable weed and bug in it. So, look for me trying to win the most improved yard of the month in the future.

Yeah !
I love working in the yard, its great therapy for me to get near Mother Earth and feel what she is saying..

Just had sprinklers put in the back yard - huge job, removed a lot of sod at the same time..

I think it`s the best thing ever to be outside doing yard things and making it look beautiful..

Love the huge amount of negative Ions that fill the air outside after a good rain/thunderstorm.. Its so exhilarating.. It make the air smell so clean...

Want to plant a few trees out there before spring; a bunch of different plants and shrubs with lots of different color flowers..

Want to see bees getting fed and watered, perhaps if I can get permission, start a beehive back there, and get some good clover honey back after I make sure they have enough for them..

Had a huge amount of beautiful Roses in WA that were absolutely stunning after Spring and way into Fall.. Heck those crazy kids were still trying to put out flowers in the snow...

Hope to be able to plant a lot of them, really good hopefully, patented varieties, that grow some incredible colors with matching scents...

Let`s do this, Junebug !!!
Dan F