The "Truth"

[JSFM35X]

[quote name=`Garry Dean`]The only point I see is you trying to bash D300.[/

[smokinfastlegen]

I have not tried it with a polishing pad... Maybe I need to. Those look like good results.

Or not, my experience is 300 fills even more when used on a foam pad.



Dont get me wrong 300 has its place, but anymore d300 has become a lubricant more so than a polish while detailing as it helps wipe up sticky compounds.



But we have been finding some very "prominent" products in the market are very filling intensive. Weak ipa solutions will also give a false idea of a perfect panel.



Hell HD polish can fill some depending on the finish, but its just still a learning process and product development. It wasnt too long ago that alot of us liked ultrafiller too.

[porta]

Regarding fillers and how to remove them. IPA is not removing all the oils and other stuffs who is left behind from a polishing compound. If the emulsifying agent(the thing who keeps, for example, the oil and water and all the other ingredients mixed together) is water-soluble then the best way to get a squeaky clean surface is to wash the car with a alkalie degreaser and it should contains cleansing tensides - this should be enough to remove everything.



And if you want to be sure that you don`t have any filling you could also use a silicone remover after the washing step.



All products will fill if used incorrectly.

[Garry Dean]

Did I mention that the Makita bo6040 is a pretty nice machine?

[Ron Ketcham]

Yes you did, Garry.

And I commented that it is a very expensive machine.

Grumpy

[gmblack3]

Or not, my experience is 300 fills even more when used on a foam pad.



Dont get me wrong 300 has its place, but anymore d300 has become a lubricant more so than a polish while detailing as it helps wipe up sticky compounds.



But we have been finding some very "prominent" products in the market are very filling intensive. Weak ipa solutions will also give a false idea of a perfect panel.



Hell HD polish can fill some depending on the finish, but its just still a learning process and product development. It wasnt too long ago that alot of us liked ultrafiller too.

Dont make me bust out the picture from yesterday.



Joey and I personally use IPA full strength on the cars we detail.



Some products fill more on softer clears and some more so on harder clears. So what worked yesterday...usually does not work today. Its the ever changing madness.



Gary, The guys from Makita brought a bo6040 with them when they visited, but the BP was in need of replacement, so we did not get to check it out.

[Junebug]

$285 aint too bad, look at the Flex machines or those air powered ones (ok -factor in buying a compressor that can handle it ok) or a Cyclo or a Metabo....



Fillers....you know, I don`t do show cars, or 100K + sport jobs, if I did I`d go for the ultimate detail finish that pro`s do. Instead I do daily drivers, farm trucks, big SUV`s and my clients just care about a shiney car with a slick finish. You try to point out the stuff we worry about and they think you have "issues". They would rather you spend time getting the interior looking (and smelling) clean again. So you know what, I`ll bust a move on D300, MF pad and hit it with a coat of wax and call it a day. It looks much better and they`re happy, they don`t have the buffer trails and thin paint that the hackers would do and I`m not busting my balls for something that`s going to haul a dead deer in the coming weeks.



Know your market, and act accordingly!

[imported_WhyteWizard]

In my experience, every product has a learning curve. Whether it fills or not, running with the wrong amount of product or running it too long or not long enough will keep you from getting the best result possible - with that product. If a product has fillers, and as several post have pointed out, all of them have materials that act like fillers even if they aren`t called fillers, you have to work the product longer and thinner, finish down better, to get an honest, truthful, result. The Makita, because it has forced rotation and puts a lot more movement between the pad and the paint than any of the standard random orbitals, gets the job done faster. We can have a long discussion of centripetal force, but I think that force is negated by the counter weight. In the final analysis it comes down to movement between the pad and the paint and what kind of movement.



As far as price goes, I bought my first one when they were more than $500 because I was pretty sure that action was what I was looking for. When I got home after the first day of using it, I bought a spare because I knew I wouldn`t leave for work again without it or one like it. Since then, I`ve tried every machine I could get my hands on and the Makita is still IMO the best bang for the buck. That machine pays for itself in about ten cars, both in time saved and certainty of outcome.



Robert

[mikenap]

$285 aint too bad, look at the Flex machines or those air powered ones (ok -factor in buying a compressor that can handle it ok) or a Cyclo or a Metabo....



Fillers....you know, I don`t do show cars, or 100K + sport jobs, if I did I`d go for the ultimate detail finish that pro`s do. Instead I do daily drivers, farm trucks, big SUV`s and my clients just care about a shiney car with a slick finish. You try to point out the stuff we worry about and they think you have "issues". They would rather you spend time getting the interior looking (and smelling) clean again. So you know what, I`ll bust a move on D300, MF pad and hit it with a coat of wax and call it a day. It looks much better and they`re happy, they don`t have the buffer trails and thin paint that the hackers would do and I`m not busting my balls for something that`s going to haul a dead deer in the coming weeks.



Know your market, and act accordingly!

[Perfections]

Junebug, you must live near me, the same could be said for 95% of my clients

[Todd@RUPES]

We can have a long discussion of centripetal force, but I think that force is negated by the counter weight. In the final analysis it comes down to movement between the pad and the paint and what kind of movement.



Robert

Centripetal force is responsible for the pad`s movement, that`s it.



I tend to agree with your last sentence but I must offer this counterpoint-



A Makita BO6040 has a 3/16th inch stroke with a maximum speed of 670 RPM & 5800 OPM.



The FLEX3401 has a 5/16 inch stroke with a maximum speed of 480 RPM & 4800 OPM (FLEX measures orbits differently, which is why it is rated at 9600, but apples to apples it is 4800).



I selected the FLEX and the Makita because they both move the pad in a similar motion, a reverse curly q. Let`s see which one is moving more, both at the outer edge and the inside.



Assuming both are running at max speed and using a 6.5 inch pad (which the stock backing plates hold comfortably)



A 6.5 inch as a circumference of approx. 20.41 inches, so every time it spins, it travels that far. In one minute the Makita can spin a distance of 13,675 inches (outer edge). The FLEX only achieves 9,796.8 inches in the same minute, due to a smaller rotational speed. BUT THIS DOESN`T include the distance created by the orbits.



The small orbit of the Makita is .58875 (3/16`s x pi) of an inch, which it does to a spot 5800 times per minute. The orbital distance of a Makita on wide open is only 3,414.75 of an inch per minute. The FLEX, develops nearly an inch of travel, .98125 inches, per orbit (5/16`s x pi) which it moves 480 times per minute for a total distance 4710 inches per minute.



At the edge of the pad, the Makita delivers a total 17,089.75 inches of moment, where as the FLEX only delivers a total of 14,506. Edge Makita....



BUT and it is a HUGE BUT, the outer edge of the pad is just one small area of the pad. As we move closer to the pads center the orbital motion becomes proportionately more significant.



Movement at 1 Inch:

Makita: 5,518

FLEX: 6,218



Movement at 3 Inches:

Makita: 9,725

FLEX: 9,231.6



Movement at 6.5 inches:

Makia: 17,089.75

FLEX: 14,506





As you can see the numbers are fairly close across the board with the FLEX holding an edge towards the inside of the pad and Makita holding an edge towards the larger surface area of the outside of the pad. From a numbers standpoint, the Makita has slightly more polishing potential....



BUT, and again, a LARGE BUT: A 5/16th stroke is going to more more deficient and transferring pad movement through the pad to the paint at the expensive of pad life. While there is no number that will substantiate the difference, I would say that would the FLEX looses in theoretical pad movement it makes up in efficiency, resulting in fairly distance per time numbers for both machines. This would be, IME, my both machines are extremely capable of producing stunning results. (Any very similar results at that).



If you want to pay more for the ability to switch between Forced Rotation and Random Orbital Mode, then the Makita is the winner. If you want something that offers different pad sizes, German build quality, and a better price, get the FLEX. There is no wrong answer. Sorry for going off topic, I just love geeky conversations.



Todd

[Barry Theal]

Centripetal force is responsible for the pad`s movement, that`s it.



I tend to agree with your last sentence but I must offer this counterpoint-



A Makita BO6040 has a 3/16th inch stroke with a maximum speed of 670 RPM & 5800 OPM.



The FLEX3401 has a 5/16 inch stroke with a maximum speed of 480 RPM & 4800 OPM (FLEX measures orbits differently, which is why it is rated at 9600, but apples to apples it is 4800).



I selected the FLEX and the Makita because they both move the pad in a similar motion, a reverse curly q. Let`s see which one is moving more, both at the outer edge and the inside.



Assuming both are running at max speed and using a 6.5 inch pad (which the stock backing plates hold comfortably)



A 6.5 inch as a circumference of approx. 20.41 inches, so every time it spins, it travels that far. In one minute the Makita can spin a distance of 13,675 inches (outer edge). The FLEX only achieves 9,796.8 inches in the same minute, due to a smaller rotational speed. BUT THIS DOESN`T include the distance created by the orbits.



The small orbit of the Makita is .58875 (3/16`s x pi) of an inch, which it does to a spot 5800 times per minute. The orbital distance of a Makita on wide open is only 3,414.75 of an inch per minute. The FLEX, develops nearly an inch of travel, .98125 inches, per orbit (5/16`s x pi) which it moves 480 times per minute for a total distance 4710 inches per minute.



At the edge of the pad, the Makita delivers a total 17,089.75 inches of moment, where as the FLEX only delivers a total of 14,506. Edge Makita....



BUT and it is a HUGE BUT, the outer edge of the pad is just one small area of the pad. As we move closer to the pads center the orbital motion becomes proportionately more significant.



Movement at 1 Inch:

Makita: 5,518

FLEX: 6,218



Movement at 3 Inches:

Makita: 9,725

FLEX: 9,231.6



Movement at 6.5 inches:

Makia: 17,089.75

FLEX: 14,506





As you can see the numbers are fairly close across the board with the FLEX holding an edge towards the inside of the pad and Makita holding an edge towards the larger surface area of the outside of the pad. From a numbers standpoint, the Makita has slightly more polishing potential....



BUT, and again, a LARGE BUT: A 5/16th stroke is going to more more deficient and transferring pad movement through the pad to the paint at the expensive of pad life. While there is no number that will substantiate the difference, I would say that would the FLEX looses in theoretical pad movement it makes up in efficiency, resulting in fairly distance per time numbers for both machines. This would be, IME, my both machines are extremely capable of producing stunning results. (Any very similar results at that).



If you want to pay more for the ability to switch between Forced Rotation and Random Orbital Mode, then the Makita is the winner. If you want something that offers different pad sizes, German build quality, and a better price, get the FLEX. There is no wrong answer. Sorry for going off topic, I just love geeky conversations.



Todd

:horn: Who is this guy? :lol

[Legacy]

:horn: Who is this guy? :lol

It`s a bird, it`s a plane

[C. Charles Hahn]

Centripetal force is responsible for the pad`s movement, that`s it.



I tend to agree with your last sentence but I must offer this counterpoint-



A Makita BO6040 has a 3/16th inch stroke with a maximum speed of 670 RPM & 5800 OPM.



The FLEX3401 has a 5/16 inch stroke with a maximum speed of 480 RPM & 4800 OPM (FLEX measures orbits differently, which is why it is rated at 9600, but apples to apples it is 4800).



I selected the FLEX and the Makita because they both move the pad in a similar motion, a reverse curly q. Let`s see which one is moving more, both at the outer edge and the inside.



Assuming both are running at max speed and using a 6.5 inch pad (which the stock backing plates hold comfortably)



A 6.5 inch as a circumference of approx. 20.41 inches, so every time it spins, it travels that far. In one minute the Makita can spin a distance of 13,675 inches (outer edge). The FLEX only achieves 9,796.8 inches in the same minute, due to a smaller rotational speed. BUT THIS DOESN`T include the distance created by the orbits.



The small orbit of the Makita is .58875 (3/16`s x pi) of an inch, which it does to a spot 5800 times per minute. The orbital distance of a Makita on wide open is only 3,414.75 of an inch per minute. The FLEX, develops nearly an inch of travel, .98125 inches, per orbit (5/16`s x pi) which it moves 480 times per minute for a total distance 4710 inches per minute.



At the edge of the pad, the Makita delivers a total 17,089.75 inches of moment, where as the FLEX only delivers a total of 14,506. Edge Makita....



BUT and it is a HUGE BUT, the outer edge of the pad is just one small area of the pad. As we move closer to the pads center the orbital motion becomes proportionately more significant.



Movement at 1 Inch:

Makita: 5,518

FLEX: 6,218



Movement at 3 Inches:

Makita: 9,725

FLEX: 9,231.6



Movement at 6.5 inches:

Makia: 17,089.75

FLEX: 14,506





As you can see the numbers are fairly close across the board with the FLEX holding an edge towards the inside of the pad and Makita holding an edge towards the larger surface area of the outside of the pad. From a numbers standpoint, the Makita has slightly more polishing potential....



BUT, and again, a LARGE BUT: A 5/16th stroke is going to more more deficient and transferring pad movement through the pad to the paint at the expensive of pad life. While there is no number that will substantiate the difference, I would say that would the FLEX looses in theoretical pad movement it makes up in efficiency, resulting in fairly distance per time numbers for both machines. This would be, IME, my both machines are extremely capable of producing stunning results. (Any very similar results at that).



If you want to pay more for the ability to switch between Forced Rotation and Random Orbital Mode, then the Makita is the winner. If you want something that offers different pad sizes, German build quality, and a better price, get the FLEX. There is no wrong answer. Sorry for going off topic, I just love geeky conversations.



Todd

You didn`t just get yourself fired, did you? :chuckle:



That`s an awesome "by the numbers" comparison.

[imported_DetailDan]

Oooooor you could just use the two side by side and see what works best for you. What ever happened to detailing made simple?