3M Ultrafina, on a scale of 1-10

[Mindflux]

So if it`s not polish residue than you think it`s fillers? Fillers that Z7 is removing but paint thinner cant?

I don`t necessarily think it`s just the Z7 doing it. The paint is being flushed with gallons of water in addition to the Z7.

Paint thinner wouldn`t be applied so liberally. If David F chimes in on the Paint Thinner remark it`d be interesting to hear more.

[Tony1]

I can`t speak to paint thinner but I have no reason to think David Fermani would lie about this as he has nothing to gain....

Well it`s the point of all this. I don`t care if he or anybody else says it has fillers. I have seen it argued all polishes have fillers. It`s his claim that the fillers are so strong they won`t be removed by paint thinner.



Do you believe that UF fillers will not be removed by paint thinner? Yes or no?

[Tony1]

I don`t necessarily think it`s just the Z7 doing it. The paint is being flushed with gallons of water in addition to the Z7.

Paint thinner wouldn`t be applied so liberally. If David F chimes in on the Paint Thinner remark it`d be interesting to hear more.

Your reaching and you know it. Paint thinner is much stronger than car wash no matter how much water is used.

[gmblack3]

I wish I could have the experience and knowledge shown here by some while only polishing a few cars.



I have polished more then a few cars, but when I read posts here by the great ones, I feel that I really still have much to learn.

[Mindflux]

Your reaching and you know it.

How so? David F as well as others have said that the fillers from UF (and other polishes) will eventually wash off via rain/subsequent washings, etc. All gmblack3a did was re-foam the vehicle after using UF. That meets the criteria of "subsequent washes".



As for your edit: Yes, Paint Thinner IS stronger, I didn`t refute that. I said I was suspecting that the flushing action of gallons of water rushing over the paint were the reason the oils/fillers were being flushed off in his picture.

[Tony1]

I wish I could have the experience and knowledge shown here by some while only polishing a few cars.



I have polished more then a few cars, but when I read posts here by the great ones, I feel that I really still have much to learn.

A few cars? Where did you get that? Lost count how many I have done. I only do my own now because of time restraints and I have other things to do in my life.



I will make this my standard question from now on in this thread when a `me to " boy posts.



Do you believe UF fillers will not be removed by paint thinner? Yes or no?

[RaskyR1]

Rasky did you think I made it up? David did say paint thinner. Doesn`t matter now because the herd is piling on and distorting like they have a tendency to do. Now paint thinner doesn`t mean paint thinner in the regular sense. Ha ha what a joke.

I was referring to my search, not this thread.

[Thomas Dekany]

You must not detail much. I see that all the time, including while claying.



On a side note, the picture above could be a combination of the previous polishing step and UF, not just UF.



Man, all those top detailers on Detailing World going from FCP to Ultrafina.... I wonder how they explain the swirls after a few months to the client?

I`ve never seen any "polish residue" look anything like the oil slick posted above. :nixweiss

[Mindflux]

You must not detail much. I see that all the time, including while claying.



On a side note, the picture above could be a combination of the previous polishing step and UF, not just UF.



Man, all those top detailers on Detailing World going from FCP to Ultrafina.... I wonder how they explain the swirls after a few months to the client?

You see "oily" polish residue while claying? Rainbows and all eh? :think: Must be all that HD Uno

[Thomas Dekany]

yep. I guess those are filler glazes on vehicle.

[Mindflux]

yep. I guess those are filler glazes on vehicle.

So are you talking about glaze `oil slicks` or polish `oil slicks`? Because like I said I`ve never seen such an event with M105/M205/SIP/106FF/PO85RD. Glazes, yes.. I`ve seen something similar when washing (not when claying though)!

[David Fermani]

Some interesting threads on fillers & solvent wipe downs. Pay close attention to what Jason Rose says:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine...teresting.html



http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-det...105-205-a.html

[sulla]

You obviously are not.

Yeah doesn`t take an expert to figure that out... I was never interested in becoming a junk scrap detailing expert anyway:nixweiss

[Todd@RUPES]

The whole ‘filler’ debate can be both frustrating and confusing. With any polish, at any given time, despite perfecting our technique to the umpteenth degree we can all experience filling that is literally out of our control.



It has been my experience that 3M Ultrafina/Ultrafine polish is no exception and is likely to have some level of filling as it does leave behind a very tough and durable film on the paint. Whether any defects return after the film is removed will depend on how well the paint is polished underneath. Ultrafina/e absolutely has the ability to leave a ‘perfect’ (as defined by having no visible marring in direct sunlight) finish with good technique on most paint systems with out issue.



I have been as frustrated with the whole filling thing as anybody, which is why I have researched it pretty thoroughly, although I still have far from all the answers. To be honest I have more questions then answers. If anything I say is incorrect I am open to learning more so please feel free to jump in!



Most polishes fill primarily because they use various types of petroleum distillates as a carrier for the solid abrasives. These carriers have to adhere to the paint somewhat so that the polish can be worked against the paint instead of pushed across it. If a foam pad moving across the paint at roughly 1,500 feet a minute (6 inch pad @ 1000 rpm) under pressure cannot move the oil off the paint then a micro fiber rag and your hand is going to have a hard time.



This isn’t to say that some polishers are harder to remove then others, but if the oils in the polish are doing a good enough job to allow you to create a visually perfect finish while moving abrasive grains across the paint, they are likely going to be difficult to remove completely with out using a clean micro fiber (and switching to a clean one often) . To make matters worse, some oils and carriers can bond to the paint and be very difficult to remove, particularly when applied with heat and pressure. Given the huge variety of paint systems (and the variables inherent to their application) can lead to some products unintentionally filling on particular paints.



I have experienced Ultrafina filling prior and have seen it do a pretty admiral job of concealing some pretty severe defects on certain paints, recently with David Fermani. Like just about anything related to detailing, there are no hard rules. I have also seen Ultrafina fail to hide even the faintest micro marring. It’s the reasons most professional detailers that I know keep a somewhat varied arsenal of products: Something’s just don’t work on some paints.



Another reason that you can get (unintentional) filling is because polishing paint can cause the paint to expand slightly (similar to how it expands in direct sunlight). If you think about wrinkles on the top of your wrist: Pull the skin tight (apart) and the wrinkles disappear.



Now there are a number of techniques we can all use to make sure defects don’t come back, but nothing is full proof.



Inspect the paint after each step of polishing. Even this isn’t as straight forward as we like it. Certain polishes (applied in certain ways on certain paints) can be difficult to remove with certain products and easier to remove certain products. This can flip-flop depending on the infinite number of variables. I used to use solvent frequently, but now use a 70 percent alcohol wipe-down as my mainstay. Some polishes can take multiple wipe downs.



Speaking of alcohol wipe downs, even they aren’t effective all of the time, but they do require a certain technique. Misting the surface with spray then wiping like a window may not work. As the alcohol evaporates, or as the towel becomes soiled with residue, you can end up re-depositing the product you are trying to remove. Liberally soak the panel with alcohol then agitate with a micro fiber cloth , then wipe clean with a fresh, clean micro fiber. Flip your towels (wiping and cleaning) frequently. Sometimes certain strength mixes of alcohol can act funny on certain paints with certain polishes. If there is too much alcohol it can flash off very quickly leaving a cloudy, difficult film of product behind, if it is not strong enough it can be like wiping the paint with.



Which leads to the other issue on this thread. Can a product survive multiple wiped owns with a strong solvent but be removed with soap/water? After doing this full time for the last three years, I would say absolutely. When we remove anything from the surface we have to release it, then find a way of a removing it. If the solvent is flashing quickly, the product could be re-deposited before it is removed. Also, some products are extremely chemical resistant but can be removed easily with abrasion, and vice a versa.



As far as David suggesting that Ultrafina can survive paint thinner wipe downs, I would say that most of the time it would wipe right off. However, I believe he is referring to a Rolls Royce Drophead that we polished last month. We didn’t have a lot of time (a lot of work lined up) so I started with Ultrafina on a black 3M waffle pad to see what it would do. It made the finish look amazing, in one pass, with no holograms. If you would have seen the condition of the paint before common sense would dictate that this was nearly impossible unless the paint was butter soft. We wiped the test spot with alcohol, perfect. A second wipe down: perfect. David had some solvent (it might have been paint thinner, I didn’t read the label) and wiped it, perfect. We shrugged and figured it was our lucky day.



We pulled the Phantom in his garage and washed it with dawn, dried it, and we noticed almost all of the scratches returned, even in the light of his garage… Weird? Yes, but I am sure that many of us have experienced just weird stuff that flying in the face of logic. Apparently the dawn in combination with the agitation of being washed, removed the product, and the water flooded it away. Maybe the paint temporarily swollen?



So at the end of the day there are just to many variables to make concrete statements. If Ultrafina/e works well with your situation then more power to you, that’s all that matters. My two cents on the whole discussion.

[Tony1]

Yeah doesn`t take an expert to figure that out... I was never interested in becoming a junk scrap detailing expert anyway:nixweiss

You are a fool. You still think using panels and hoods from the scrap yard to try things on is stupid. I suppose you just jump right in on people`s cars and experiment on them. Using parts of cars from the scarp yard is actually very common. If I remember correctly that big wax test that was done here years ago was done on a scrap hood or something like that. That`s the test that made P21s famous since it scored high or won in that test. There are also many threads on here with people recommending to others to practice on scrap pieces from cars. If you actually thought about it instead of piling on with the band wagon boys you would see it`s actually a good idea you fool.