Look Ma no DA!!

[imported_Details]

O.K. so I am a professional detailer, and mobile detail business blah blah blah... I just started getting into the jeweling process, as this is the only thing I have not mastered yet!!!! Ive been trying it more and more lately on test panels and on family members cars, and I always end up with very very very faint swirls, I mean almost to the point where you have to dance around the car to see them, and thats after IPA wipedown, all rotary no DA.. So my question is what can I do to correct this? Longer jeweling process? More product less product? Prime the pad better? Less pressure? Any advice from the pros would be nice!! thanks in advance



The project was a 2008 Ford Taurus (non metalic black). It was covered in water spots and etchings everywhere, and I mean everywhere, due to sprinklers...

Decontamination:

1. wash (foam gun, two buckets/ grit gaurds, two wool mits

2. clay (meguiars aggressive)

3. degrease ( 4:1 in the foam gun)

4. IPA (1:1)

Buffing:

5. rotary, wool, m105, 1500 rpm, 1 pass, left to right top to bottom, moderate pressure, slow arm speed, 1.5` x 1.5` area, IPA ( this removed the etchings and cleaned the paint perfectly, but of corse left nasty swirls, trails, and holos)

6. rotary, flex heavy polishing pad, m105, 1500 rpm, left to right top to bottom, 1 pass, moderate pressure, slow arm speed, slow arm speed 1.5` x 1.5` area, IPA ( thise refined some of those nasty swirls, trails, and holos, and made them not as bad)

7. rotary, flex light polishing pad, m83, 1500 rpm, moderate pressure, left to right top to bottom, drop down to 900 rpm, machine weight, left to right top to bottom, slow arm speed 1.5` x 1.5` area, IPA ( this removed the nasty holos and trails, but left light maring to the surface)

8. rotary, flex finishing pad, m205, 1500 rpm, moderate pressure, left to right top to bottom, drop down to machine weight at 1500 rpm, left to right top to bottom, slow arm speed, drop down to 900 rpm, moderate pressure, left to right top to bottom, drop down to machine weight at 900 rpm, left to right top to bottom, slow/ moderate arm speed, 1.5` x 1.5` area, IPA ( this removed all the marring, but left the most faint holos i have ever seen, they almost looked like what i would say waxing streaks, i literally had to bob my head back in forth in the most exact position to to see them)

9. I applied m21 with a DA and I dont know if this REMOVED or HID the faint swirls left behind in the burnishing stage, because i did not remove the wax.



The finish was awesome, it looks so good, to someone whose not a detrailer they would people very impressed/ more then pleased with the job. But i know in the back of my head when that wax wears off, those holos may appear again.... Im two inches away from OCD, with cleaned flawless paint.. so I want to do it right!! I would like to be able to acheive a perfect finish before protection...

[craigdt]

If you are on a soft paint, you may need something gentler than 205, such as Menz 85 or Ultrafina.



Another issue could be during your IPA wipedown. I remember a thread where a guy was in your same situation, very faint holos after a IPA when using 205. Turned out that his towel was causing the marring, which was suprising.



Edit: a 3rd option. You may wanna try jeweling with a DA if you have one. There are plenty of very good guys who cant *quite* get perfect results from a rotary.

[Accumulator]

Details- Welcome to Autopia!



I`m one of those guys who can`t finish out 100% with a rotary :nixweiss



Even guys who *can* sometimes find M205 tricky for this, let alone on the sorta-soft paint Ford uses.



Compounding the problem (eh..no pun intended), M205 can leave some mighty tenacious polishing oils behind, which resist IPA wipes to a surprising extent.



And yeah, I agree you oughta get rid of those holograms, faint or not. Ones that nobody else can see would bug me so much I wouldn`t drive the vehicle.



If I *had* to finish out via rotary, I`d go with 3M Ultrafina on their finishing pad. People claim it`s, uhm...Accumulator-proof, but I haven`t tried it to know for certain.

[Barry Theal]

Well as for one who almost always finishes down via rotory. If your trying to remove swirls while jeweling the problem is not in the jeweling. jeweling isn`t designed to remove anything. its complete purpose is to add extreme gloss. hence the name JEWELing you need to already have the car completly swirl free and hologram free before jeweling. This is an extra step when the car is already good. What I like to tell people when I describe this is, when others are finished thats when I`m just getting started. what this means is. I already have a perfect finish. Now I raising the level when jeweling. this step is not easy. there were times when i had a car swirl free and hologram free and since i began jeweling I ended up inducing holograms and had to redo. Once you get it you`ll see a big difference. Now as far as products, 3m`s ultrfina as Accumulator said is a great jeweling polish. very exspensive but its amazing stuff. Oh From what I see nothing is Accumulator proof. lol just kidding Accum.

[Accumulator]

Well.. jeweling isn`t designed to remove anything. its complete purpose is to add extreme gloss. hence the name JEWELing you need to already have the car completly swirl free and hologram free before jeweling. This is an extra step when the car is already good...

Yeah, IMO that doesn`t get emphasized enough. Until the finish is as perfect as it can get, the jeweling/burnishing stuff oughta stay on the shelf.

... there were times when i had a car swirl free and hologram free and since i began jeweling I ended up inducing holograms and had to redo...

That`s why I do my burnishing with the Cyclo. Never seen a decrease in anything compared to my rotary work, well...nothing except a decrease in holograms I understand that non-rotary jeweling is, uhm...a topic that can be debated, and yeah, IMO the PC is often not a good tool for this. The jury is still out on using the Flex to burnish...probably product/paint dependent; I gotta try it with some Menzerna FPII some time.



And yeah, I`ll agree that stupid-soft paints probably require a rotary for this step (glad I don`t have to work on those).

.. Oh From what I see nothing is Accumulator proof. lol just kidding Accum.

Woo hoo...But hey, until I try Ultrafina I`ll accept that, at least when it comes to finishing out via rotary



I`m no klutz by any means, but I always got those oh-so-faint holograms so ...well...I gotta admit I just quit trying and went back to finishing out via other polishers. That`s one advantage of *not* being a pro, I only gotta do what works for me on my own vehicles. On those I do OK with the methods I`m using, dunno about what would happen on other paints. You pros, that`s different, you *gotta* be able to get the results on anything

[scary bill]

If the holos are very light, a light polish and soft (zero cut) pad will bring out the gloss and finish out.



I use 3m UF and a LC blue pad. Uf works because it finishes wet. I use it on my dark trucks, great gloss.

[Darkstar752]

You`re not using the rotary right at all. 4 steps? I can usually get to around 95% in 2-steps, and that`s because I don`t like chasing the real deep RIDS.



I don`t get how anyone has added any holograms by jeweling, I never have so far. I use PO85RD, and a finishing or waxing pad. Use slight pressure, an then make 1-2(1500) passes with slight pressure at moderate speed. Then, I move down after, machine pressure only slower speed, work for about 3(1500,1300, 1100) passes at that speed and pressure. Then I lift about half the weight of the rotary off the paint, enough that it still has enough pressure to function but not much weight on the pad at all. About 2 passes(900, 700), slow arm speed, really gently working it. Paint looks REALLY good after.



It`s pretty rare that I get a chance to really jewel the paint though, because people aren`t willing to pay for it. One more thing to keep in mind, the "weight of the machine" is subjective to the machine itself. A Dewalt, vs a Flex rotary is very different, that`s half the weight already.

[Accumulator]

Heh heh, I always get these "how could you get holograms with that combo?!?", which always sound a *wee little bit* like "gee, you must be a dunce"



Nah, haven`t tried UF; if I had reason to care I`d give it, or FPII, a try.



Wonder if Mike Phillips is still finishing out via D/A :think: He`s been using a rotary professionally for what, 30 years or so, so I figure I`m in good company finishing out with my other polishers.



EDIT: I`ve sometimes had to expend a lot of time and effort, at just the right time of day, working with another person (to effect transition from partial shadow to full sunlight), in order to see light holograms. Very short window of opportunity as the sun`s angle/position will change and then I can`t see them no matter what (no, not with the SunGun). And yeah, that shadow-sun transition using a helper is absolutely *critical*.



Just as others can`t help but wonder what my problem is with the rotary, I can`t help but wonder whether everybody goes to the same effort to spot holograms that *nobody* would ever see under normal circumstances. I`ve had to correct a lot of "hologram-free" vehicles that really weren`t.

[scary bill]

EDIT: I`ve sometimes had to expend a lot of time and effort, at just the right time of day, working with another person (to effect transition from partial shadow to full sunlight), in order to see light holograms. Very short window of opportunity as the sun`s angle/position will change and then I can`t see them no matter what (no, not with the SunGun). And yeah, that shadow-sun transition using a helper is absolutely *critical*.



Just as others can`t help but wonder what my problem is with the rotary, I can`t help but wonder whether everybody goes to the same effort to spot holograms that *nobody* would ever see under normal circumstances. I`ve had to correct a lot of "hologram-free" vehicles that really weren`t.

I noticed some of those *hard-spot-trails*in my lighting after a correction with OP and a white LC pad, only on the hood. I suspect that the pad I was using was loaded up as I did the hood last. To see them the sun had to be in the perfect spot and the stars had to align.....



It also seems that the sun has to be behind a thin cloud. The direct point of intense light washes out the trails, probably from the metallic/pearl in the paint.



It seems that only I could see them. I tried multiple light sources, including an incandesnt, and could not catch them again. It also seems that they were so slight that *any* LSP on the paint would mask them.



UF took them out that time. I just repolished the whole truck as a clean up/jewel, so I will have to wait unlit nice enough weather to see if I can do it again.



Another observation:

My Ranger had some body work done. I got it back trashed with 1500 grit scratches and compounding haze. Most of the people I showed the damage to had no idea what I was pointing at on the paint.



My friend bought a new Toyota truck, it is covered top to bottom with trails. I got the new Dodge Ram, you guessed it-covered in trails. Again as I point out the marring to others they can stare at it and not see it. I know of a bunch more. I think the inmates are running the asylum-its a scary place out there :LOLOL



In the spring I will polish out the Ram.

[Accumulator]

scary bill- Yeah, it`s a hassle when the holograms are too faint to see. Even when I know right where they are, the faint ones won`t even show up under my SunGun.



Interesting that the UF worked for you. IF/when I really want to revisit finishing via rotary I just *gotta* try that stuff.



And yeah...it *is* frustrating when you`re pointing right at a flaw and somebody says they can`t see it. I try to refrain from making snarky remarks but man is it hard