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**rmccall6** · 01-21-2002, 11:04 AM

I just thought I`d let Terry know that we have experienced BF loosing slickness after circa 2-3 washes. Thankfully, the slickness losss has little to do with the durability of BF acording to the chemists. Now understand that while Terry does have an obligation to promote his product, he is the most honest promoter i know...

Hi Brad,

It`s called having to drive a car in the real world. Our tests here in Tampa

have surprised us with the durability of the product. After 6 months there

is still noticeable sheeting which means the surface is still protected.

There is a gravel pit directly behind our business and our vehicles are

coated with a fine dust every day. I joke about it being sand paper

particles but it`s probably not far from the truth. With wind and rain

driving the particles it just has to affect the finish. After a few washes

yes, the slickness is gone and I can feel surface contamination ( a gritty

texture) on the surface. In fairness, the same thing happens with every

product I`ve used, natural or synthetic. The best solution is to use the

quick detail spray once a week to maintain that sparkle.

I do this but I`m a nut. I like the "just detailed" gloss and slickness yet

I can`t park my car in a garage at work. I`ve tried Meguiar`s, Mothers,

Autoglym, Klasse, Zaino, Zymol and goodness knows what other products and

have not found anything that has maintained that elusive sparkle and

slickness over time. And all of these products have stronger solvent bases

than we use in BLACKFIRE.

On a side note, a good friend has a collector car that is rarely driven.

It`s an 80` something Camero but he only drives it occassionaly. Most of the

time it`s in his garage. We put BLACKFIRE on that vehicle a few months ago

and I`m amazed at how good it looks. It still looks like it was just

detailed.

From a product standpoint, maintaining that slickness was not a design

criteria. If we were to only focus on that aspect, I`m sure our chemist

could come up with a product that would meet that objective. But if it

required using a heavy solvent base and thick silicones, I`m not sure the

trade off would be worth it. (Slickness is best obtained from using heavy

silicones which we try to avoid).

I hope I`ve answered your question. If you are focused on maintaining that

elusive sparkle and slippery feeling, keep the car garaged or under a car

cover as much as possible and use a quick detail spritz once a week.

The perfect car care product has yet to be invented that excels in every

performance aspect. While it`s frustrating, it`s what drives us to keep

trying to do a better job as new chemical building blocks become available.

Happy Motoring.

Terry Freiberg

Classic Motoring Acc

**imported_killerjg** · 01-21-2002, 11:32 AM

Thanks for the update.

I`ve been following the posts and I`m not concerned about the slickness. I have not experienced any loss of shine myself.

**imported_BretFraz** · 01-21-2002, 12:07 PM

Thanks for the update, Brad. It answered all my questions about Blackfire.

**kiltman** · 01-21-2002, 12:42 PM

I didn`t expect any different answer from Terry. Completly HONEST and didn`t try to make excuses . Straight up bussiness man thats why he is successful.

**JonB** · 01-21-2002, 01:28 PM

I got my first look at the new layers of Blackfire in hard sunlight. Many of the swirls are gone. The gloss and slickness is back. The depth of the shine is equal or better than that of a good carnauba.

The question that I am going to ask myself is: How does this campare to other polymers and what are the tradeoffs with each.

Klasse has a very nice shine. Good swirl covering and minimal to moderate depth. Durability is excellent. I did have a haze problem initially, but that only happened while covered with wax. It is not very humid now so that could also have been a factor. Looks great with a Blitz or Souveran topper.

Blackfire is very easy to apply and remove. Can do several layers each day. While I did layer Klasse multiple times in a day, that might have been a factor with the haze. The depth and shine are excellent, however durabilty of those are debateable at this time. I have not tried a wax topper yet, but the ease of application makes me want to keep wax off and if I need to add a layer once a month or so, that might be preferable.

I have the least amount of experience with Zaino, but I think it is very durable with regards to shine and slickness. I think the shine is a little bit like plastic coating. I have yet to see multiple layers to see much depth to it. I am hoping that with several layers, the depth of the gloss will increase. I have not seen any swirl covering, but I have not had a chance to observe any really.

The bottom line: Blackfire would be my personal favorite if it were a bit more durable in the shine dept.

Klasse shine is excellent, but dealing with haze still.

Zaino is going on the bimmer shortly so I will be able to report my personal experience with it better. The Accord has one layer on it, and it looks great on silver for sure. I really need to see the layered effect though.

Maybe the sealants are not the way to go if you are willing to wax monthly to keep that deep wet shine.....

H

**imported_killerjg** · 01-21-2002, 02:27 PM

Just to pipe in on the haze. I have chosen not to wait 12+ hours between SG applications. I have done several back to back in a variety of temps with no hazing problems.:up

**kiltman** · 01-21-2002, 03:02 PM

I agree with likecars also. I have also done Back to back SG on both my cars with no problem

**imported_Intermezzo** · 01-21-2002, 03:08 PM

BradfordHay,

Thanks for sharing that info with us. Personally, I`m not that impressed with the initial reports on BF and I don`t agree at all with Terry`s assertion that Klasse and Zaino do not maintain that elusive sparkle when parked outside while at work. I have a daily driver that was driven 50+ miles a day, parked outside while at work, and still had an amazing shine with great slickness.

Basically, it sounds like BF will maintain that "just detailed" shine only for garage queens. Is Terry joking?? ANY product will make a garage queen look amazing. Sorry if I`m offending anyone, but I`m sure as hell glad I didn`t order BF. Basically, it sounds like a product with a carnauba-like shine that fades just as quickly as regular carnauba!!

Another quote from Terry:

"From a product standpoint, maintaining that slickness was not a design criteria. If we were to only focus on that aspect, I`m sure our chemist could come up with a product that would meet that objective. But if it required using a heavy solvent base and thick silicones, I`m not sure the trade off would be worth it. (Slickness is best obtained from using heavy silicones which we try to avoid). "

Once again, I disagree. Zaino uses no high-solvents and no oils or silicones and it manages to provide slickness for a long-time.

EOM

**truvette** · 01-21-2002, 04:51 PM

<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

Originally posted by Intermezzo330I [/i]

Sorry if I`m offending anyone, but I`m sure as hell glad I didn`t order BF. Basically, it sounds like a product with a carnauba-like shine that fades just as quickly as regular carnauba!![/i]

Once again, I disagree. Zaino uses no high-solvents and no oils or silicones and it manages to provide slickness for a long-time.

[/b]</blockquote>-------
My Reply: Why does this sound familiar?

-------
Anyone use Zaino and NOT like it??

It seems that some Zaino supporters see the weakness in other products but are blind to the shortcomings of Zaino. So they bucket other products and speak of Zaino as if it was perfect.
[/b]

**BradE** · 01-21-2002, 05:02 PM

Last time I checked everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

**William420** · 01-21-2002, 05:21 PM

Although I do not like the reply from Terry, I don`t think it`s fair for the exact reasons that Intermezzo pointed out (very well said), but I wound`t count out Blackfire.

The durability is debatable at this moment, but seems like it holds up better with more coats. Need more time to observe but it is clearly to me that Zaino is superior in every way on durability.

I just put on coat#6 last weekend and had a smile on my face when I buffed out the last panel. As some report, the shine is like Souveran but S is $70. It`s also comparable to Blitz but Blackfire can be layered immediately and if Blitz work the same way as Souveran then you need to wait 12-48hours. BF cures faster WITHOUT any need for additictive like ZFX, and it goes on easy comes off easy, gives great shine. These advantages are good enough for me to continue using and experiment with it.

**truvette** · 01-21-2002, 05:22 PM

SL, looks like you missed my point. It`s true everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it doesn`t bash another product.

**BradE** · 01-21-2002, 06:03 PM

<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

It`s true everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it doesn`t bash another product.</blockquote>
You are entitled to your opinion even if it does bash another product. I don`t think Intermezzo was bashing a product, he was simply stating his response to Terry`s e-mail. I think Intermezzo raised some very vaild points about BlackFire, I do not consider that bashing.

**William420** · 01-21-2002, 06:12 PM

<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

I`ve tried Meguiar`s, Mothers, Autoglym, Klasse, Zaino, Zymol and goodness knows what other products and
have not found anything that has maintained that elusive sparkle and slickness over time. And all of these products have stronger solvent bases than we use in BLACKFIRE.</blockquote>

You guys are taking it a little too seriousl Please take a look at above reply by Terry. Does that sound like bashing too (especially on the solvent issue on Zaino)?

Let`s keep it friendly :up

**shinnster** · 01-21-2002, 06:15 PM

Thats very interesting what terry had to say, and i`m glad he gave some info on blackfire.

Everybody has different expectations from the products they use. Most of the time if we are displeased with a product it means just that. It doesn`t mean the product sucks, it`s just that it didn`t meet the expectations we put on it.

i for one have had some gripes about bf but i`m still experimenting. I really think that if i can come up with the right methods, bf will be my favorite product to use. Just remember that products are products. They are produced to please a certain kind of people. so, if bf is not your cup of tea don`t use it. I just enjoy the experimenting.

Just my $.02

peace