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  1. #211

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Accumulator- That first statement you made in your reply really opened up a can of worms. Mostly related to DHA/EPA crossing the blood -brain barrier. From what I found out Krill Oil crossed the blood-brain barrier more readily because it has a phospholipid that the Omega-3`s are bound to. So that "Theoretically" supplementing with the right phospholipid , taken in conjunction with DHA/EPA, would promote better transfer across the blood-brain barrier.

    Going down the same Rabbit Holes as you did, in reference to the types of studies, provided the TMI part of doing analysis/research. LOTS of stuff to weed through.

    I agree with your comments about the test amounts of DHA/EPA be used. Really insignificant levels. Can`t see how they would come up with any other result than what they show. Wonder why they use this Methodology or what their motivations were.

    My DHA/EPA amounts per week are broken down along these groupings. The DHA amount will be about 3.3 grams daily and the EPA amount would be 1.6 grams. That`s around 5.5 caps a day on a weekly basis. I`ll do 2 in the morning and lunch.One with dinner. I`ll be adding as needed for my weekly total.

    I`m also a very "PICKY" person regarding all aspects of Health Care. I use the carpentry adage "Measure Twice ,Cut Once" to describe my research method. No need to get pushed towards end-of-life Issues by choosing the wrong option.

  2. #212

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    jrock645- That`s *exactly* what has me wondering...the "being harmful" as I see it as pretty much black/white where whatever`s not beneficial *is* harmful (at least to progress). Yeah, I guess I`m really splitting hairs here, but I guess I *am* basically trying to get that last x% sorted out, at last in terms of ongoing success as I get older.

    Hitting Failure, which as I keep saying I always attempt to do, is simply *NOT* necessary for gains. Maybe for *optimal* gains, but plenty of people who *never* reach failure do great anyhow and I`m unaware of any study indicating that Failure is necessary any more than DOMS is (another thing I aim for anyhow). Maybe I`m *wrong* to always go to failure and to work so hard I get DOMS! (If so, it`d be mostly related to recovery/etc. and more importantly to wear-and-tear). When I quit making a big deal out of "not just concentric failure, but static and eccentric failure as well" I did *better* in every discernible way, zero downside at all.

    That old bit about "the rep you fail on is the one that triggers gains" is scientifically (and anecdotally) unsupported. Heh heh, maybe Perl and Menzer are debating it in the afterlife

    I don`t want to come across as anti-Mentzer, I just get disappointed in people who violate their own expressed beliefs and/or cherry pick data to stroke their confirmation bias.

    To be clear: I respect and esteem the late Mike Mentzer something fierce.


    Note that Menzter, Mr. Heavy Duty HIT proponent, didn`t stick with it. He`d get really out-of-shape and stay that way for a long time. His last book was "Muscles in Minutes" but apparently he couldn`t/wouldn`t put in those minutes year-in-year-out.

    So was the flaw in the Theory, or in Mentzer`s application of it, or both?

    IMO, theories that don`t work in practice are flawed and need to be revised. Good theories do work in practice, that`s what makes `em good. So the "perfect world" qualifier doesn`t work for me

  3. #213

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Marine Clerk- The Krill Oil factor brought me up short, I hadn`t considered that!

    MY BAD: When I decided I was *not* going with Krill Oil I basically quit looking into it So I`m utterly ignorant about it for practical purposes and will defer to you. I do hope you`re right about the phospholipid even if we are just splitting hairs.

    I do wonder if there`s any *downside* to having the ratios basically inverted, with twice as much DHA as EPA. I just don`t know and can`t recall what, if anything, Sears had to say about it.

    (Eh, I know Sears is probably in it for the $, but he is a Lipid Scientist as his primary specialty.)

    Yeah, it *is* indeed easy to hit the TMI! point, and it gets hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. That`s a big part of why I just decided to skip the Krill Oil (that and how the cost compared the one time I did look into it).

    I believe the low-dose Fish Oil in the mainstream studies is simply a set-up designed to funnel resources/opinion towards somebody`s benefit. No, I don`t think that`s cynicism, if only because I`ve learned that a great many studies are not really motivated by a desire to uncover the truth; they couldn`t/wouldn`t be conducted the way they are if that were the real goal (any sop````re in an Experiment Design-type course knows better, so those researchers do too). Money, reputation, ego...all sorts of things really motivate people who are ostensibly working for The Greater Good and since nobody calls `em on it it just keeps on happening. Even when a Study is conducted well, and shows clear-cut results, it`s not all that unheard of for its Summary (only part many read) to say something directly contradicted by the results in the *body* of that study....the Oversight Committee must not have liked those results so they just wrote up what they *wanted* them to be (think the researchers will gripe if they want future funding, or tenure?).

    Your last point related to End of Life Issues obviously resonates with me, and/but I`ll readily admit I`ve done, and continue to do, things that will undoubtedly shorten my life But I want to enjoy myself as much as possible while I`m still here, and the stuff we`re discussing in this thread helps me do that.

  4. #214

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Accumulator- Given the added cost $ of Krill Oil plus the MUCH lower quantity of DHA/EPA per cap it`s not a good choice IMO. Possibly the best option is to add a stand alone phospholipid capsule to the mix. I`ll be road testing one by Jarrow Formulas called PS 100. It`s not inexpensive but since I`m just Guinea Pigging myself won`t be so bad. Between now and my next test for my GP I`ve got three months. Plenty of time to see, based on both tests and anecdotally, how it works.

    Glad you brought up Sears. Don`t know a thing about him, so I`ll read up on what he has to say.

    Your comments on the reasons for how Fish Oil studies are set up and interpreted make sense. Between Agendas, Ignorance and Angles you seem to have it covered.

    I only nibble on the edges of shortening my lifespan. Common sense prevents me from pushing the envelope like I used to, regardless of my good genes for longevity. All in all I find this thread quite helpful.

  5. #215
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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    My understanding is the benefit of krill oil is completely separate from epa/dha and instead is all about the anstaxin or however its spelled. Basically a very strong natural anti inflammatory. Might not do anything for blood lipid levels but could be great for heart health by lowering systemic inflammation. Were learning that cholesterol alone is pretty harmless if inflammation markers are low. Its when those go up that you start getting the issues.
    2018 Acura TLX ASpec

  6. #216

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    My CRP level the last time I tested was .4 mg/L. CRP is medical shorthand for C-Reactive Protein. Which, measured in blood tests, tells you the level of inflammation in your body. https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-pro...t/pac-20385228

    You are at a much lower risk of Heart Attack if your levels are 1-2 mg/L.

    I take a 12 mg cap of Astaxanthin daily. Five caps of the average Krill Oil contain 1-1.5 mg of Astaxanthin.

    The test I looked at show a positive reduction in inflammation at the 2 mg. a day level. https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...ce570d502b2bfe

    So, if you`re taking 8-10 caps a day of Krill Oil you should be doing well.

  7. #217

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Marine Clerk and jrock645- Thanks for the info on the Krill Oil. Wonder when they`ll do some human studies...

    Marine Clerk- Barry Sears is (probably) primarily known for his Zone Diet, which my wife sorta-follows as she`s very carb-sensitive, although I think of him as Mr. Fish Oil. You`ve got to stow your cynicism when reading his stuff since he has skin in the game, what with all his "Zone"-trademarked products. I disregarded him totally for years for that reason and understand why others might too, and IMO his stuff isn`t exactly geared towards knowledgeable people, especially not those who are training properly and doing their own research.

    BTW, Clarence Bass` review of the Zone Diet was an early indicator that he`s, uhm.. not always reliable

  8. #218

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Marine Clerk- I`m probably more concerned with aging well than with my actual longevity. I`ve known far too many people whom I believe lived too long for one reason or another, and I worry more about that than about dying. And FWIW, an awful lot of those people also believed they`d lived too long; some came right out and said so, a few were downright desperate to die and [ticked] that they couldn`t check themselves out. Made such strong impressions on me that, as I tell my Docs, I`d much rather die five years too soon than five days too late.

  9. #219

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Accumulator- Uhh.. The test I referred to in my last thread via a link , maybe I should have said study, was one done on humans.

    FWIW, I always depend on multiple sources of information to corroborate what I`m looking for research wise.

    I understand your opinion of the "Level" that Barry Sears writes at. I think it`s geared towards people who are just initially looking for nutritional information and are not that well informed. So, in writing "Down" to their level, he turns off a lot of people who already have a more comprehensive understanding of what they are looking for. Plus, on other occasions, a book is just being written for financial incentive and it shows.

    Clarence Bass` review of the Zone Diet was written over twenty years ago. I think things have change a bit , information wise, in the last two decades.

    Your last thread was thought provoking and made sense. My analogy of health/wellness is like this. The person who says "If I live to be 80 I`ll be satisfied" is akin to being in a sailboat that is rudderless and expecting to get to your destination. I much prefer a sailboat with a rudder. Curiosity will take you a long way in this world, complacency won`t. The "Oh Well" mind set will end up putting you in position where it`s too late to make changes . That`s when the rehashing of the woulda, coulda, shoulda, can take place. I think ageing well and being well go hand in hand as far as longevity.

  10. #220

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Marine Clerk- OOPS, my bad I read "Similar clinical studies in humans are unavailable.." and quit reading. Ticks me off, I try to do better than that

    (I did just now go back and read the thing...thanks for calling me on that.)

    I don`t know enough to determine whether the beneficial changes were (functionally) significant though...my layman`s ignorance ran smack dab into stuff I can`t evaluate.

    I don`t really mind the level of Sears` writing, but rather that he gears everything towards people who are way out-of-shape and very ignorant about Fitness. His "exercise recommendations" are, uhm...unsatisfactory. But I also get that most people reading his stuff don`t know anything about it and wouldn`t do what they oughta if it were spelled out for them ("oh, that`s too extreme"!).

    What bugged m wife and me about Bass` review of The Zone Diet book was that he got *so* much of what Sears wrote wrong that he must`ve just skimmed it (as I did that A
    staxanthin article....pot, meet kettle). I don`t recall the specifics, but we looked specific stuff up *in the book* and it wasn`t what Bass said it was.

    The whole Financial Incentive really does come to mind with Sears, what with his Zone Labs` products being his answer to everything.

    Possibly related: he apparently doesn`t always use his products himself. There have been a few cases where Nutritious Living (actual manufacturer of Zone Cereal) has dropped the QC ball and turned out bad batches. One was so bad it was like eating cardboard (and I don`t mine eating Fiber1 dry, so when I say that...). Had Sears taken one bite of that batch he would`ve undoubtedly called them up and told `em to fix his cereal...but when I called The Zone they had no idea and it took *forever* for them to sort it out (we ate different Nutritious Living cereal in the meantime after sending back all that terrible Zone stuff). That really made me wonder...

    But yes indeed, the advances in all this stuff over the last two decades have indeed rewritten a lot of previously accepted dogma. Heh heh, funny that the Therapeutic Dose of Fish Oil somehow hasn`t gotten through to people "studying" it yet

    And yeah, your last paragraph makes me think we`re pretty much on the same page, especially regarding complacency and (intellectual) curiosity.

    It simply astounds me that people are willing to just *decline* as they age and that they accept so many, uhm..."age related" limitations...as being inevitable. As I`ve posted before, I grew up around people who lived actively, independently, right up to the end. "Senility" was something that happened to other people, not to the elderly I knew, they were all sharp as tacks. I figured that was normal...

  11. #221

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Hey, check out the weird Font changes in the above post!?!

  12. #222

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Accumulator-Those Font changes have happened to me tooIt`s a Yikes moment.

    That study I referred to, about Astaxanthin, also has a continue reading link that takes you to a synopsis of what the results were. All the charts, graphs, and figures can be a bit much when you`re just trying to discern results. When you have a decrease in C-reactive protein you have less systemic inflammation. That relates to the inflammation levels we`ve discussed when using higher doses of Fish Oil. The decrease in DNA damage relates to lifespan in general, so that seems to infer a potential for longer lifespan.

    Your follow up comment, in regards to intellectual curiosity, was what I was going to use in reply to any comments you would have made about the collective subject of health. Seems we`re in agreement.

    Your last comment sums up my opinion.

  13. #223

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Marine Clerk- Yeah, I pursued the links and saw the graphs but just don`t know what`s significant/not.

    My CRP levels were always OK, even back when I was, uhm...less health-oriented, and I`ve always assumed it was from the Fish Oil (can`t remember/don`t have records here about the years before I started the Fish Oil).

    And yeah, DNA damage, especially as related to to telomere length, is something I hope both the Fish Oil and Exercise help with. Part of my concern with overtraining is how that can negatively impact such stuff, tricky to find the sweet spot.

  14. #224

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Accumulator- Taken individually those graphs wouldn`t carry much weight. But as a whole seem fairly significant as far as improved overall health is concerned. Their read is a compare and contrast look.

    Even the researchers who ran the test said that there`s been good results with lab rats(so to speak) lets see what the results are with humans.

    One of their substances they measured IFN-Gamma or Interferon Gamma which has anti inflammatory properties. The levels increased, which was a positive aspect. This relates specifically to a remark you made about overtraining and it`s potential for a negative impact. In a separate study other researchers tested individuals based on moderate ,strenuous and extended moderate exercise. Their results showed that after a single episode of moderate exercise the IFN-gamma dropped. After the strenuous level it dropped even more. But that after a month of moderate exercise it shot up to double the baseline results. The unanswered question, as far as I`m concerned, was why they didn`t include a test for results after a month of strenuous exercise? Plus, what conclusions can you draw from a single episode of moderate and strenuous training? So, all in all , a decent study but as far as i`m concerned incomplete. Though it still relates, somewhat, to your concern about exercise levels and negative impacts. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4129275/

  15. #225

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    Re: 2019 Health & Fitness Thread

    Marine Clerk- Ah, thanks for linking that study! Oh boy, lots of the terminology is beyond Yours Truly, but I think I was able to muddle through

    Heh heh, their version of "Strenuous" isn`t even a good warmup IMO (strenuous =+100% of Resting HR?!?), but they were using untrained subjects (wonder how *that* factors in, sigh...so many studies use untrained subjects). Their "Moderate" (+50% of Resting HR) is, IMO...one tiny increment about "sedentary", so it was interesting to see the results of that (and no surprise that it "got better" over time).

    I wonder how it would`ve gone with trained subjects. Also wonder how the "Intense" group would`ve fared had the test period been extended to where that was their New Normal activity level. I mean...gee, I probably hit RHR X 2 almost every day just in the course of, well..doing stuff, and nearly triple it during Cardio.

    Heh heh#2, if somebody`s *NOT* getting at least that "moderate level" of exercise, I`d *expect* them to have health problems!

    This does have me wondering anew about further blunting inflammation through Astaxanthin supplementation though...not that I need new ways to spend $!

 

 
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