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  1. #121
    jrock645's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    So I just brushed up on this 4 hour body stuff and I decided I`m going to take the plunge. Sure, it`s controversial and unorthodox, but what I`ve been doing lately isn`t netting the results I want commensurate with the time I`m putting in. But, being a believer in not eating carbs is controversial too, so I`m not opposed to alternate methodology. As far as the HIT approach to weight training, I`m extremely familiar having read Ellington Darden and Mike Mentzer`s books on the subject and using that method for a good while.

    So, I`ve prepared a spreadsheet with A, B and C workouts and another spreadsheet with all of todays measurements- weight, bf%, water%, waist, thigh, arm, chest and shoulders. I`ll measure and log all that again in two weeks, and then again two weeks after that. I will also input weight used for A and B workouts this week, then again in a month. I`ll have the spreadsheet calculate percentage change on all measurements and weights. I`m making a hybrid program using the A and B weight sessions as well as the C workout being the kettlebell workout more geared toward women. Sounds funny, but a lot of my rehab for the back injury and what I still make sure to incorporate into my workouts is extremely similar to some of the things girls do to get a bigger butt. Strong glutes and hamstrings keep me from throwing out my back, so I`ll employ part of that protocol into the plan.

    Beyond that, I`m not going to go into too much detail here. Paralysis by analysis and well intentioned advice tend to confuse and talk you out of doing what you should have done sometimes, which they talk about in "4 hour body."

    I`ll share my results as I log measurements.
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  2. #122
    My name is Mike mjlinane's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Good for you. Yes, my sciatica recovery/prevention has a heavy dose of kettlebell swings/snatches/TGUs for that reason.

    Other "helpful" advice: sleep a lot & well and concentrate on legs. Ran across a study where overall upper body strength increased more when in combination with lower body exercises than with upper body only.

  3. #123
    Autopia Specialist RaysWay's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Can anyone recommend a workout app? I`m just looking for workout ideas or routines. I`ve tried a few apps and they seemed like overkill since they want to sync to every device and track every minute of my like. I just want to load an app that has workout ideas. Thanks in advance!

  4. #124
    House of Wax's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RaysWay View Post
    Can anyone recommend a workout app? I`m just looking for workout ideas or routines. I`ve tried a few apps and they seemed like overkill since they want to sync to every device and track every minute of my like. I just want to load an app that has workout ideas. Thanks in advance!
    Check out Jefit

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  5. #125

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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    I have read that book. Been a long time but i had trouble taking it seriously. It all seemed so theoretical...
    Once again, shows how different people do stuff differentl! I`m *all* about studying the theory and cogitating on it for hours as that`s helped me more than anything else.
    I think my fat mass would balance fine if i could put on some discernible muscle.
    Still gotta watch the health consequences of being "fit but fat" though. But yeah, and having more muscle would up your metabolism so you`d burn more calories all the time and that`d help with the bodyfat anyhow.
    With the limitations from my back injury, thats hard to do. Free weights are mostly out.
    One thing I`d consider (and they sure work great for me if I do them right) is using an IronMind Hip Belt for squatting. It`s great to simply take the whole spinal column out of the equation.
    The Arthur Jones/Mike Mentzer approach is difficult because you have to be in a certain kind of shape to be able to train to failure with 1 set max output. Muscular/CNS connection has to be well trained. Not something a lightly trained newbie can properly do.
    I guess everybody`s different, but it worked for my wife after just a few sessions, and her mind/muscle connection isn`t very great.

    Noting that I *do* train to failure, and consider DOMS to be an indicator of a productive workout...I question whether training to failure (and/or experiencing DOMS) is really required for progress anyhow. Plenty of people do great without pushing that hard (e.g., many top gymnasts and even some top bodybuilders never train to failure and avoid DOMS like the plague, but they`re still *very* muscular)

    Note that I *am* a huge fan of those Jones and Mentzer, especially the latter. But they weren`t right about everything.

    What variable do *you* think needs tweaked for you to make better progress?

  6. #126

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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    jrock645- Strong hamstrings and glutes are just *SO* important! Glad you`ll be concentrating on them.

    mjlinane- Yes indeed, *SO* many people find that by working their lower body harder their UPPER body gets a huge benefit.

  7. #127
    jrock645's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    Once again, shows how different people do stuff differentl! I`m *all* about studying the theory and cogitating on it for hours as that`s helped me more than anything else.


    Still gotta watch the health consequences of being "fit but fat" though. But yeah, and having more muscle would up your metabolism so you`d burn more calories all the time and that`d help with the bodyfat anyhow.


    One thing I`d consider (and they sure work great for me if I do them right) is using an IronMind Hip Belt for squatting. It`s great to simply take the whole spinal column out of the equation.


    I guess everybody`s different, but it worked for my wife after just a few sessions, and her mind/muscle connection isn`t very great.

    Noting that I *do* train to failure, and consider DOMS to be an indicator of a productive workout...I question whether training to failure (and/or experiencing DOMS) is really required for progress anyhow. Plenty of people do great without pushing that hard (e.g., many top gymnasts and even some top bodybuilders never train to failure and avoid DOMS like the plague, but they`re still *very* muscular)

    Note that I *am* a huge fan of those Jones and Mentzer, especially the latter. But they weren`t right about everything.

    What variable do *you* think needs tweaked for you to make better progress?
    That`s exactly what I mean with the bodyfat bit. Need to make the proverbial furnace a bit bigger to facilitate the goal.

    As for the hip belt, that wouldn`t necessarily solve the big problem. Yeah, squatting isn`t a good idea, but it`s probably even more dangerous to be leaning down to pick plates up off a rack. Lugging around 45lb plates and the bending and whatnot to load them onto the bar concerns me more than squatting. With controlled use of weight, the movement itself doesn`t actually concern me too much though I`m extremely weary of overdoing it. By the nature of it, I won`t really know whats too much until I`ve done it and that`s just not good enough.

    Theres obviously different ways to lift weights. A powerlifter`s goal is to simply move it from point a to point b in reference to the executed lift, and their goal is to be able to move as much weight as possible. Bodybuilders ultimately don`t need to like to lift or care how much weight they move beyond, over time, it`s beneficial to be able to lift more than before. Theres the volume training approach which facilitates a huge pump, which swells muscle fascia which in turn makes for growth. You can focus on the big 3 and getting stronger, which, over time means muscles will get bigger. And of course theres the HIT method which focuses on time under tension and getting muscular overload out of a single set.

    One of the biggest ways people(myself included at some points) get confused and waste their time is they see an athlete that looks how they`d like to look and resort to trying to train like that athlete to look like that athlete. Seems to make sense, except the athlete didn`t train for aesthetics, they trained to perform and be conditioned a certain way. The way they look is simply a side effect, and their method and time spent training is impractical for the average person not just for the time factor but the fact their body simply can`t take that kind of punishment. Lebron James and Michael Phelps are perfect examples of genetic freaks that do more exercise in a day than the average person than the average person should be doing in a week. They recover so quickly they can get up and do it again the next day.

    At any rate, I sometimes have goals that aren`t congruent. Case in point, I`d like to be leaner and have a bit more muscle. I also like training for overall conditioning- endurance type stuff. I enjoy swimming, I actually enjoy longer cardio workouts. I like cardio in general and find I feel better when I`m doing a lot of it. Problem is, you can`t do a lot of cardio and try to build muscle at the same time. Doesn`t compute. I like being well conditioned, like a runner or a swimmer. Problem is, percentage-wise, distance runners and swimmers typically have a higher BF than most other collegiate/Olympic level athletes because they don`t carry a real large amount of muscle mass. And ultimately, I don`t want to look like a runner(been there), I`d much rather look like a sprinter. So the trouble for me is training very specifically and leaving things out that are counterintuitive to my goal.

    Biggest issue I had with HIT when I was doing it back in `08 was how to deal with stagnating progress. Obviously, while I went to failure today, as the mind muscle connection develops and I get stronger, today`s workout will in no way be in the same category of intensity as they will be in a month or so. When you hit the wall, sometimes you need to change the workout a bit- either deload, switch out exercises, change the order, or change(lessen) frequency. Knowing what and how much to change and how long to give it is difficult and I tended to get a little trigger happy with tweaks. Granted, I was 22 at the time, I expect I`ll have a bit more patience now plus more experience to make decisions by and lean on.
    2018 Acura TLX ASpec

  8. #128
    Autopia Specialist RaysWay's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    What are your guys thoughts on pre-workout supplements? I had a solid gym session today but on my way to the gym around 4pm I yawned and hated it lol. My diet is good...it`s just after a solid day of detailing I`m thinking I need a little kick in the butt to wake up. I`ve used some popular ones in the past and enjoyed the "pump" effects. I feel like it makes isolating muscles easier....or is it just a placebo effect?

  9. #129
    jrock645's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RaysWay View Post
    What are your guys thoughts on pre-workout supplements? I had a solid gym session today but on my way to the gym around 4pm I yawned and hated it lol. My diet is good...it`s just after a solid day of detailing I`m thinking I need a little kick in the butt to wake up. I`ve used some popular ones in the past and enjoyed the "pump" effects. I feel like it makes isolating muscles easier....or is it just a placebo effect?
    I use them before every workout. A bit of caffeine provides a nice boost. No problem as long as you’re not abusing it. I’ve used quite a few and most of them work fine. Haven’t noticed much difference. Key thing is look for ones with certain ingredients you like, whether it’s beta alanine, creatine, citrulline, etc. Most are made of similar stuff with variations.
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  10. #130

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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    RaysWay- I did my heaviest squats using the old (now banned) Ultimate Orange Woo hoo did it give me a boost, almost like, uhm...never mind

    Some Nitric Oxide supplements gave me such a boosted pump that they were borderline detrimental! Never got any lasting benefits though. I *can* understand why some would like that though.

    Tried other preworkout supplemenst too, and did get a little boost, but it didn`t translate into anything significant and cycling off them made unboosted workouts feel a little blah. Now I just do my weight work before the morning`s coffee completely wears off. Or at least I try to. So no, IMO it`s just more stuff the industry wants to sell and thus deems essential.

    BUT...don`t discount the Placebo Effect, if it doesn`t work we`d never hear about it any more. And if you discern *any* benefit, don`t talk yourself out of it (or listen to me!), do what works for you.
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  11. #131

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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Regarding Creatine...heh heh, I get a chuckle out of "pre/post workout creatine dosing". Guys who say that are either pushing product and/or they don`t understand how the body uses the stuff. I love/use/recommend it, but oh man the nonsense people continue to spew about it!

  12. #132

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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    jrock645- I love the way you`re thinking on this stuff, not avoiding the seeming paradoxes/etc. but rather trying to figure it all out. Not easy to reconcile the mutually exclusive, is it?!?

    And heh heh...yeah, though it was my entire focus when I was younger, the appearance benefit *is* just a side-effect after a certain age. Well, that and not having to replace the wardrobe.

    Oh man...just so many good points in that post of yours...The diff in our ages/experience has gotta factor in here...

    What other people do can be unrelated to their results. Those Genetic Freaks don`t need to do everything exactly right the way a genetically inferior person does. The strongest, most muscular guy I`ve ever known IRL didn`t do any exercise at all...looked like a `roided out bodybuilder and lifted stuff like a Strongman, just the way he was, said he was a weakling compared to his father.

    I alter my (resistance) exercises a little bit almost every workout, even if the change is just something seemingly minor. Yeah, that makes it hard to compare performances/track progress quantitatively, but I don`t care about that much. I don`t find it too challenging to figure out the right changes, but maybe that`s just me and all those anatomy books I`ve digested. Just changing things in the Micro sense seems to keep me fresh enough for Macro gains..."OK, first of two different sets for Biceps..let`s see, this time I oughta use progressive resistance, have my elbows in front, and keep my wrists fully supinated; then next time I`ll start with constant resistance, with my elbows behind me, and I`ll rotate my wrists from neutral towards semi-supinated through the movement; and the time after that, I`ll..." So I`d go through maybe four *slightly* different types of first-set curls over the course of a few months, working Bis for 2-3 sets after back, every other Friday.

    For quads, in a perfect world you could use a selector-stack machine to load the Hipbelt and squat away with zero back involvement of any kind. (In that same world I`d build/sell `em, know just how I`d design it too!)

    Eh, Mike M. was all about Leg Extensions...which take all sorts of flak for being a single-joint approach to a multi-joint problem and an "unnatural" movement (whatever that`s supposed to signify). He liked those and Leg Presses, which can sometimes be done with a selector-stack machine too...or are those tough on the back too?

    What about picking one muscle group and concentrating on that? Like..figure out everything about what it`s function is, how it works, how to train it.
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  13. #133
    Autopia Specialist RaysWay's Avatar
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Thanks for the advice fellas. I went with a thermogenic preworkout for now. I`ll probably switch to one that has creatine down the road. I`ve always liked that stuff.

  14. #134
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    Accumulator-

    What do you think Jones and Mentzer got wrong?

    I just remember thinking Elle Darden was horribly off base with his nutrition stuff. Wheat bread is the perfect food? Really? Eat low protein? Some of that stuff was just laughable. Obviously you don’t wanna throw out the baby with the bath water but after reading some of that crap it’s easy to question if anything he says is credible.
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    Re: 2018 Health and Fitness Thread

    jrock645- Yeah, once somcebody gets certain stuff wrong it casts aspersions on *everything* that sounds even just a bit iffy, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    Accumulator-

    What do you think Jones and Mentzer got wrong?
    Heh heh...oh boy, I`ll try to keep it brief:

    Jones` ideas of frequency/detraining were utterly off-base; Mentzer`s take on that (including the presumed reasons why Jones got it wrong) were very good. Also his insistence on working to complete failure being essential, that the whole body should be worked each workout, that Isolation Work is not required, and that HIT resistance work would accomplish the same things as HI(I)T cardio. And he got the "Nautilus variable strength curve" exactly backwards for Delts and Hamstrings.

    I suspect Jones decided "what`s best for each muscle group" in a less-than-scientific manner; anatomists have views very different from his, and they have the support of (modern) research .

    Mentzer was equally wrong about the Cardio/etc., and isolation work. He too failed to consider certain facts of Human Anatomy (e.g., that bit about the Delts and Hamstrings), and other than recognizing that (most) Nautilus equipment is superior to (most) freeweight approaches, he never even considered factors such as the role played by the nature of the resistance. He seemed to underplay, or even dismiss, the need for variety and periodization, preferring to say that plateaus/etc. were always the result of either overtraining or lack of effort.

    But my major disagreement with Mentzer is probably his insistence that there`s only "one valid theory" for each and every aspect of training (or anything else). What`s true in one context might not be true in another. IMO he fell down Rand`s rabbithole that there`s "only one valid theory for everything and everybody every time". When it comes to exercise/diet/etc., different stuff works differently for different people.

    (Nobody oughta take the above as me being anti-Rand, I just don`t think she was right about everything.)

    Hey, those guys weren`t students of Anatomy and didn`t have today`s research findings to go by. (Darden doesn`t really have that excuse...) AFAIK I`ve read everything by Jones and Mentzer (and a bit of Darden), and there *is* something of value in all those works, but you gotta be careful what you believe without evidence.

    I just remember thinking Elle Darden was horribly off base with his nutrition stuff. Wheat bread is the perfect food? Really? Eat low protein? Some of that stuff was just laughable.
    SO much has changed with regard to what we understand about nutrition over the last few years (and about other aspects of this stuff too).

    Eh, IMO he`s blind to the failings of Jones and stuck in his current viewpoints. Like Jones and Mentzer, his Time Under Tension ideas and thoughts on "the right way to do exercises" sound really good (e.g., the Force Plate experiments), but don`t always translate into the actual End Results that the trainee is after and I get the impression he doesn`t keep up with the latest studies on most stuff. With all the medical/etc. tech advances, a whole lotta Conventional Wisdom that sounded perfect is disproved all the time.

    IMO the problem is that people either don`t read about this stuff to begin with, or read the stuff by guys like that [INSERT...and oh man, the Internet!] and accept it without effective critical analysis.

 

 
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