2018 Health and Fitness Thread

[jrock645]

jrock645- I`m kinda wondering about your plan to go from 12 reps to 20. That`s be quite an accomplishment!

Last workout I only got 6. But i think it was just an off day and i was due for a bit of a break. Ill get there, just gotta keep grinding.

[jrock645]

@accumulator

Do you have a good HIT style bodypart specialization workout for chest? I get progress everywhere else but my cheat always seems to lag

[Accumulator]

@accumulator

Do you have a good HIT style bodypart specialization workout for chest? I get progress everywhere else but my cheat always seems to lag

[VERY long version follows: ]
Aw gee, my approach is awfully weird-equipment-dependent It does work for *me* and like you I had a terrible time getting good Pec development. I can`t do barbell benchpresses and never got the results I wanted doing DB presses either, let alone dips or pushups (neither of which were even remotely beneficial for me).

Here`s exactly what I do, not sure how to tweak it for a version without said equipment but maybe you`ll find something useful:

Per usual, I only do one Work Set of each movement.

- Incline Bench Presses on the Soloflex ("SF"). Two pretty light/low-rep warmup sets, then one drop set for the Work Set. I add some small plates to the SF so I`m not just relying on its elastic bands for the resistance. It took me forever to get the right bench angle! That`s my "heavy movement" even though I use relatively light resistance.

Somehow that gives me great Pec work and is pretty much the only Pressing movement that really does (for *ME*). I`m able to really target/feel/work the right muscles. Dropping the weight down to far less than I`d used for years, and experimenting with the bench angle, were very beneficial, should`ve done that years ago.

The Progressive Resistance of the SF`s bands work very well for me, not too heavy at the beginning of the movement where the Pecs are weakest. The arc of the SF`s arm is also good for me now that I have the bench angle right, better than straight up/down.

- (Optional) DB Incline Presses. No warm up, just one Work Set. Again, I had to mess around with the angle/etc. and use lighter weights. I`ve quit doing the "rotate the DBs" and/or using different hand positions. I do bring the DBs together at the top of the movement. I might skip these depending on how I feel that day, or I might change the bench angle and do a second set.

- Incline Flies using Resistance Bands. I do "burns" on most reps, repeating the peak contraction part of the movement (do full rep, bringing hands together, go back down about 1/3 of the movement, bring hands together again, then go all the way back to the starting position).

- (Optional) Incline SF Presses, Lock-out/Ltd. ROM only with a somewhat narrow grip. I change the bench or something so I`m just doing the peak of the movement (once I get it up for the first rep). I *really* concentrate on feeling the innermost portion of my upper Pecs and work at *NOT* making it a Tri exercise.

- Cable Crossovers using a Low Pulley on my Lat Pulldown Machine. I sit on the floor to do these, and have to have something heavy to hold onto to stay in position. I use Resistance Bands in addition to the plates and IMO that makes *all* the difference (as does sitting on the floor). I *might* do a second set of these in a standing position. This is always my last Pec movement.

Best things I ever did were:
-ignore all the "real guys bench, and they do it heavy" type advice
-drop the weight *a lot* and go for feeling my Pecs work instead of the Delts/Tris, only raising it once I was really dialed-in
-increase reps and *NOT* care about "getting stronger" but rather focusing on feeling the Pecs work and getting good DOMS
-quit doing more than one set of any movement; at least change *something* significant like hand position/bench angle
-decrease frequency of workouts to once/two weeks

And if in doubt, I do fewer Work Sets instead of more.

Note that the function of the Pecs is to bring the hands/arms together as per doing Flies. Movements like Presses kinda work the chest, but that`s just not the primary function of the Pectorals. Those "wimpy movements" like the Cable Crossovers have worked *GREAT* for me...once I figured out how to do `em right.

I have to do the Pressing movements early in the Workout, contrary to the usual Pre-exhaustion sequence where you "do the movements involving the Tris after first hitting just the Pecs". That theory sounded good to me, but just didn`t work. Similarly, "start with DB Flies, and when you can`t do more switch to doing Presses" didn`t work as I was just too played from the first movement to get anything out of the second.

I concentrate on the upper/inner areas of my Pecs. The lower/outer portions seem to do fine without my focusing on them.

Studies indicate that Incline Presses oughta be less effective than flat ones, but that was not my experience.

DB Flies work the outer portion of my Pecs well, but the lack of resistance at the top keeps them out of my regular rotation (my Pecs already flare out over my ribcage so I don`t need any more on the outer areas).

The Pecs get stronger as they contract (like most muscles). IMO that`s why the SF and the Resistance Bands are so effective. Just adding a little 3lb Resistance Band to the Crossovers made a world of difference.

So, two light warmup sets of about five-seven reps. Then three to eight Work Sets. Gotta avoid doing a lot of sets too regularly.

After working Pecs, I do a few sets for Tris.

[Accumulator]

@accumulator

Do you have a good HIT style bodypart specialization workout for chest? I get progress everywhere else but my cheat always seems to lag

[Reasonably succinct version follows:]

Find movements where you can really feel your Pecs working. If you ever lose that feel, something has just gone haywire. IMO if you don`t get good and sore *in the right places* then again, something`s haywire, but that`s just me and training hard enough to trigger DOMS isn`t really necessary (according to guys who oughta know) and BTW that also applies to going to Failure (which I still like to do on every Work Set).

Use light enough weights that you can really focus on what you want to work. Consider doing high-rep sets at least for a while as this can make it easier to develop the mind-muscle connection, just don`t go much over 20 reps for very many workouts.

Warm up and then do just one set to true failure, then move on to the next movement. If you`re *certain* that`s not enough for an effective inroad, then do a Drop Set, lowering the resistance as quickly as you can and then getting a few more reps, to stretch that one set out longer.

Rest as long as necessary to be able to really nail the next set...no matter how long that ends up being (I might rest over 10 minutes these days). And then recover long enough before doing the next Chest workout (like my two weeks).

Prioritize Crossover/Fly movements instead of Presses. Note that I used to have an Isolateral Bench Press machine by HammerStrength, something that should`ve been All That. Nope...big waste of $ for me. I`ve tried Nautilus`s various Chest machines (two versions IIRC) and those had way too much stretch at the start and got way too hard nearing the peak, just not right *for me*.

Find a way to incorporate Progressive Resistance so the movements get a bit tougher as you near peak contraction.

This is another area where I find the Lat Pulldown Machine invaluable. Mine has low and high pulleys on its "back side" and even though an adjustable-height pulley (optimally a setup with two so you don`t have to work one side at a time) would be best, I get great results without it *ever since* I started adding the resistance bands in addition to the usual weight plates. IMO that`s one piece of equipment that`s really worth considering. I suspect that I could do OK for my Pecs by *only* doing Crossovers on that thing. Heh heh, wish I could Wayback Machine and never do all those sets of Benches/Dips/etc. that "everybody knows are effective", man I was *so* off-base following the conventional wisdom..

BUT sigh...I bet none of this, or the preceding post, were really of much help, huh? Too much specialized equipment. Guess my Big Answer is really to just ignore the conventional wisdom and spend a little time finding what *really* works for *you* and then avoid the temptation to "just do a bit more". Plenty of people would probably scoff at my Chest Routine, but hey..I`m pleased as Punch with the results I get from only a few sets every two weeks, and as per my other posts, I`m making great progress right at the age where most long-time trainees are in decline...all good IMO.

[jrock645]

I’ll try some of that.

Ill take some of what you suggested, and look through mentzer’s book for a chest only workout. And I’ll drop chest movements from my Monday/Friday workouts and do chest on Wednesday’s for a while, try to force some growth.

I tend to believe in the building strength to get bigger, but I’ve always had a hard time doing either with my chest. Legs and back always responded well to training but chest has been a struggle. Long limbs to blame?

[Accumulator]

jrtock645- My responses yesterday have been bugging me this whole time! Not at all pleased with myself there

What I *should* have posted back was a Q: what equipment do you have available for working your chest?

Remember how Mentzer (whom, for the umpteenth time, I think was *GREAT* and whose stuff I`ve studied over and over and over..) asked the rhetorical Q "how *do* you get bigger then...by getting weaker?!?" Well, as a student of Philosophy he should`ve caught himself there..that response was a Rhetorical Fallacy that I consider beneath him. (FWIW, the answer to his Q is "yeah, sometimes that *IS* how it works out", BTDT, first-hand experience; absolute strength and hypertrophy don`t always go hand-in-hand).

Functional strength is useful, no argument there. And if that`s somebody`s priority then I sure won`t criticize. But that`s not my primary goal.

That`s a good Q, about your long arms being a negative factor when working chest...I`m gonna think on/look into that. My arms are a bit short for the rest of me (so said my tailor), but I dunno if that was ever a factor that I noticed when working chest. Huh...good food for thought.

FWIW, my upper chest has always been the hardest area to develop...well, that and my lower abs. But yeah, same challenge you`re facing and it took me forever to get things sorted out.

I think that the usual problems are:

- Doing exercises that don`t really focus on the Pecs
- Making those exercises even less productive (Pec-wise) by using excessive weight and poor form
- The above add up to the Delts/Tris doing too much of the work and the Pecs not getting their due, including neurologically
- And that neurological part makes it increasingly harder to recruit the fibers that need challenged because you reinforce the incorrect recruitment every time you lift

What I did was drop the weight a *LOT*...like "oh man, I`m wasting this workout doing this light [crap]", and I did that for quite a while, changing one variable at a time and keeping careful track of what occurred/didn`t.

How light? Some baby-weight that lets you do maybe 30 or more reps. After a bunch of reps I`d feel the burn in whatever area was (really) getting worked, and it was informative if irritating. I`d get a bit of DOMS from those light/long sets too, and again, not always where I expected/wanted to feel it. I REALLY focused on feeling the muscles work and gave zero thought to how much weight I was moving. I used a lower rep speed than usual too, helped me feel things better. I also worked at being able to flex my pecs when not lifting, in that (IMO goofy-weird) "make them bounce" way. Took me forever to be able to get anything like that happening on the one side (and that side still won`t do it very well, but at least it responds a bit now).

The result was that I changed a whole lotta stuff, from the weight, to the incline angle, to my hand spacing...you name it! I`m still using lighter weights than I had previously. So, I`m arguably "weaker". But my Pecs are bigger and look better and I have a much better mind-muscle connection to them.

I think it`s great that you`re gonna take chest out of the usual rotation and focus on it by itself (I`d do Tris too since they`ll already be primed for it). One thing to watch for- if you work your back on Mon. that could impact your Pecs and still factor in on Wed. See what happens, might not be a valid concern.

Again, if you get back to me about what equipment you have available for your chest work maybe I can come up with something actually useful to suggest. I`ve been thinking on it from this perspective: What if I were stuck at a resort for a month, away from my home gym? Like..with the "usual nice gym facilities" but not my cobbled-together setups. How would I maintain my current condition, let alone improve, if I did *NOT* have my stuff? I bet I could still do pretty well if I thought it through right.

[pgp]

I looked at the up/down exercise on youtube, I don`t see how that is possible ? Standing up from cross leg sitting, I can`t even move up ward from there. I can get up putting one knee down.

[jrock645]

@accumulator

I have basically every piece of equipment at the gym that i could need. Benches, free weights, DB’s of all sizes, hammer strength machines, nautilus style press machines, cable machines, pec decks, fly machines, smith’s, etc.

I tend to do pressing in the amith becausw i can safely work the negative without having to worry about getting stuck, and i train alone.
I prefer the pec fly machine to the usual pec deck- get better stretch.
I use DB’s for incline press.
Have dip stations, use it.

I think the big thing is to back off on the weight and work on the MMC.
In the past, ive gottwn up to 75lb db’s on the bench but it didnt improve cheat development. Just addressed the neurological aspect and all the stuff firing efficiently.

I typically only do 1 exercise each for tri’s and bi’s, and those are split between my mon/fri workout. I fewl like i get wnough from compound movements that they dont need a whole lot of direct work.

I downloaded Baye’s HIT book and looked at some chest specialization stuff. Was about what i expected, but of course im gonna mwld any other ideas with my own experience.

Between my mon/fri workout i do 3 chest movements. So, dropping those i was gonna add in reverse curls and wrist curls, and swap the dips(which could be seen as a 4th chest movement) for tricep pressdowns. Then leave wednesdays for chest and HIIT.

[Accumulator]

pgp- I can`t sit cross-legged, so I`m not doing it that way (note that I sure do find it impressive when somebody can). That way is a great exhibition of Relative Strength, being strong for one`s size/weight, and/but there are all sorts of other subjective/individual factors in play like flexibility, balance, and neurological efficiency.

You`re not doing badly if you`re only letting one thing (your one knee) touch! You`re still in that "not likely to die any time soon" class. I gather you can do the "down" part of it OK, and I bet that`s more than most can say too.

Try it the way I do it, maybe that`ll make it a lot easier: Try sitting down with your legs in front of you instead of crossed, and held a little off the ground with your knees slightly bent. Rock back and forth, bringing your knees towards your chest while you rock back (from your seat touching the floor to your mid-back touching it), like doing an ab exercise where you try to touch your knees to your chest. Build up some momentum- legs go back, torso comes forward, arms swing forward too. Then to stand up, as your arms and torso move forward, try extending your left leg (same as you`ve been doing with both of them while rocking), but do a one-legged squat with your right leg (or whichever leg is your strongest, I find it a lot harder/less certain when I use my left leg).

I`ll readily admit that employing momentum isn`t the same as doing it without that, not even close. But IMO it`s not "doing it wrong" or otherwise cheating, at least I`ve never read that it "must be done" a certain way and eh, I`m satisfied that I can do it at all.

I figure it`s a test of overall healthy athleticism, not a test of purely upper-leg strength. Again, I`m sure *not* saying that I`m in the same class as people who can do it the really hard way, but I don`t know anybody my age IRL who can do it at all without something touching, usually more than one thing. Although one in-shape guy who`s working on it will undoubtedly get it any day now if he hasn`t already.

Heh heh, yeah..."what`s possible"...man, there are folks who can do such incredible stuff, and make it look easy! I can`t do lots (most?) of that stuff, and I never will be able to, but I do find it inspiring. People who can do a "flag"?!? Sheesh...incredible.

[Accumulator]

jrock645- Ah, lucky you to have such a great gym available!

I used to have a chest station that worked basically like a Smith Machine. The problem with it was that (unlike the Hammer Strength) my hands didn`t come together as I neared peak contraction. Also, moving the weight straight up/down just wasn`t right for me since the body wants to move it in an arc. But you`re sure smart to avoid the "getting stuck" aspect of benching (I too train alone).

How does the Hammer Strength BenchPress work for you? I was *so* sure I`d love mine, but it was just something huge that was hard to find a new home for.

My issue with the DB Presses seemed/seems to be that the need to stabilize the weight prevents me from really focusing on working my Pecs. Doesn`t necessarily feel that way, but I believe that`s what happens.

Being able to get the right stretch from a Pec Deck/Fly machine is so critical, so it`s great that you know/have what`s right for you.

If you like the Dips and remember to keep the right tilt (Pecs not Tris working), cool!

On the compound vs. isolation, I was surprised to find I did better focusing on the latter. Sure had to park my ego given the weights I`m sometimes using.

I`ll directly mention how yes indeed my experiences have flown in the face of *so much* that I`ve read/believed. "Just squat, dip, and do chins"/etc., "stick with compound movements", all sorts of stuff...guess I`m a bit opinionated about it since I feel I wasted so much time/effort doing stuff that didn`t work as well what I`m doing now.

Anything you think I could benefit from in Baye`s routine that you`d care to mention?

You mentioned Forearm training...heh heh, I sure do prioritize that Usually set aside one day just for those few sets of Wrist Curls/Reverse WCs. I can train mine about every 10-12 days, stretching it to two weeks doesn`t cause problems but isn`t quite optimal for me.

[jrock645]

If youve read darden, youve basically read baye. Hes kinda darden light, imo. Has some additional commwntary on differwnt exercises and offers more workout templates but hes basically darden with a sprinkle of mentzer.

I havent used the hammer strength machines, theyre always full. I try to keep my workouts brief, generally operate on a tight schedule and just hate waiting for a machine, so ive designed my workouts to keep them moving. Big part of why i use some of the pieces i do.

I totally agree on the db presses. I have mixed feelings about them.

I like cable crosses but rarely do them because thats a station that tends to be busy at the gym. I have no time for unreliable things in my routine that wont be consistent. Things like that i just drop and do something else.

[jrock645]

Not letting me edit. But my workouts really are brief. After a bit of warmup primarily for mental purposes, my full 8-10 exercise full body routine including core work takes 35 minutes max including getting to and from each corner of the gym getting to what i need.

[jrock645]

Took till this afternoon for the soreness to really come in, but my traps and delts are absolutely trashed after the face pulls yeaterday. Definitely did those right!

[Accumulator]

jrock645- Ah, yeah...dealing with "getting access to the machine at the right time" would indeed be a factor.

Gee, you *do* finish up fast!

Yeah, I think we`ve discussed Baye-as-Darden-light/Mentzer before. Same ol` same ol` IMO...almost always something good in anybody`s HIT stuff, take what works for you and leave the rest.

Glad you hit your Traps and Delts so well...I can pretty much guess what "face pulls" are if that`s what go sore

I undoubtedly overdid it on Friday Back/Bis/Rear Delts/Abs is a lot for me to do on one workout anyhow (sure took forever) and I ended up doing *10 sets* for back Yeah, it`s a complicated bodypart with lots of stuff to hit, but that`s gotta be excessive. Sure do feel it though. The 4 sets for Bis and 2 for Rear Delts were more reasonable..

[Accumulator]

I need to do at least 2, and preferably about 4 (if I want any real progress), sets for both Bis/Tris. Just doing two will start to cost me if I do that very often.

My arms never seem to benefit from my other Upper Body work, I have to hit them with isolation exercises. Which I guess holds true for most all bodyparts.

For Bis at least, it seems I oughta be able to get by with the 2, but I don`t make progress that way and start to lose strength on some movements.

Not that I expect much progress since I`ve been training Biceps since `77 and it seems pretty basic- you bend your arm at the elbow to perform a Curl of some kind, simple huh? Still, giving thought to Elbow Position, adding the Resistance Bands to the usual (gravitational) resistance, and adding close-grip, supinated Pullups to the mix has given me a little boost. I went years, maybe decades, without really getting my Bis sore much, but these days I do feel them later and I`m certain they`re looking better though I`ve never measured them.

That "where are the elbows?" seems significant. For Bis, having my arms so that the elbows are 1) behind my torso, and 2) over my head, in addition to the usual arm curl position (in front or along side torso), were good additions. I do the same sort of thing with Tris.

For some reason it seems I can get by with fewer sets for Tris even though it`s a more complicated muscle group IMO.