I can`t believe I`m asking you guys about dishwashing detergent.

[Dan]

So early last year I went through my stock of Cascade. I could put just about anything in the dishwasher and it would come out clean. The next batch turned all my black plasticware grey with hardwater deposits. I switched to Finish and that stopped things from getting white but got nothing clean. Next up I thought the dishwasher had just gotten old (10 years) and bought a nicer new one. Same problem. If I don`t get my dishes spotless before I put them in, I get nasty crap stuck all over everything. I`ve tried just about every powder on the shelves. I`m about to rip my hair out because all I have now is a fancy rinsing and drying machine. I`ve read that a lot of this has to do with removing phosphates...



Any ideas?



PS, I have really hard water, ~225ppm.

[Paul Sparks]

My wife used the gel type Cascade tablets and they started to leave film all over everything. As you did we thought it was the dishwasher getting old so we replaced it only to find the same results with the new one. A cup of vinegar or double rinse made no difference. She ended up switching to Cascade powder and wham we were back to crystal clean dishes and stemware. We also wondered about the removal of phosphates from what we had read online. All I can say is after the switch to powder the wife is off of my back to come up with a solution.

[Ron Ketcham]

Silicone, there are so many variable forms of silicone/siloxane-oils/resins, used for many uses.

And, then when combined with various surfactants, emulsifiers, well, there you go!

Tell your wife to put the dishes back in and run just hot-hot water cycle, it should break it off.

No dish washing soap, no Cascade, just run it.

Let me know if it breaks the residue off the dishes.

She may see a few water spots, but I doubt there will be that many, since there is such a build up of the chemical components that started the whole thing.

Who really knows, but it is a very cheap way to find out.

Grumpy

[Accumulator]

Dan- Huh, maybe it`s your water (I gather it`s hard) :think:



When they took the phosphates out we switched from the Walmart stuff we`d been using to Cascade Complete, and while it`s kinda pricey by comparison it works well for us. But we`re running a softener too....

[tom p.]

Dan, a lot of people are encountering the same. Out of curiosity, have you tried Finish Powerball Tabs?



(I`m in New England so the water is "hard", but maybe not as hard as yours. We have a newer BOSCH dishwasher and I have not encountered the problem regardless of which detergent is used...)

[bigltc]

I`ve got the new gel type cascade tablets...`Cascade Complete`. They cost more but they work. The Finish Tablets are rated good too, but I have not tried them.



When the detergents changed I had spots all over the dishes. Had the repairman out to check out the dw and I basically paid for him to tell me that they changed the detergents and we are all screwed. At least you got a new dishwasher!

[Dan]

Guys, thanks for the feedback, I`ll try the the finish tabs and the cascade complete before I start on my homebrew TSP enhanced formula.

[salty]

ONR lol. I`ve noticed the same thing.

[togwt]

I thought this was going to be about Dawn for car washing



The root cause is the water hardness, not the dishwashing liquid being used. The mineral salts (calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) or irons (Fe) are reacting with the detergent, to form an insoluble precipitate known as soap film or scum. Reacting with hard water minerals to form the film uses up some soap; this depletes the amount of soap available for cleaning

[Accumulator]

TOGWT- That magnesium in the water doesn`t get much attention; when I had my water analyzed they decided I needed "berm filters" before my softeners just for the magnesium. I had those installed a week before the softeners, and just by themselves they made a diff- icecubes were less cloudy. No, I don`t have any idea how a it works, but it`s like a softener without the salt bed.

.. I`ll try the the finish tabs and the cascade complete before I start on my homebrew TSP enhanced formula.

Heh heh heh :chuckle:

[Ben@3D]

The water here is hard as can be and comes out of the tap looking like milk. Most dishes have to be washed after going through the dishwasher.



Gonna have to try the Cascade Complete instead of the cheap generic stuff I have been using.

[Accumulator]

The water here is hard as can be and comes out of the tap looking like milk..

Thinking of another thread..Gee, that really might explain our differing experiences with Dawn.



I`ll be interested to hear how the Cascade Complete works for people whose water is so different from mine.



And I gotta say I dunno how you folks get by without softeners! I mean, my water is what most people would consider soft to begin with (forget the ppm); nobody else I know on my water-supply system even bothers with a softener, let alone all the stuff I have.

[Lowejackson]

I am so glad we have soft water in Cumbria (UK)

[togwt]

I am so glad we have soft water in Cumbria (UK)

Besides Malvern, Cumbria`s water is probaly one of the softest in the UK (and the views aren`t bad either

[togwt]

The water here is hard as can be and comes out of the tap looking like milk. Most dishes have to be washed after going through the dishwasher.



Gonna have to try the Cascade Complete instead of the cheap generic stuff I have been using.

Phosphates



Sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP) is an ingredient use to enhance the performance capabilities of automatic dishwasher detergents. They contribute buffering strength, sequestering (or chelating) power, dispersion and absorptive capabilities, and solubility. They not only strip food and grease from dishes but also prevent food debris becoming reattached during the wash.



While phosphates are no longer permitted in laundry detergents in the US, because the chemical compounds also pollute lakes, bays and streams as they create algae blooms and starve fish of oxygen. They are still allowed in automatic dishwashing soaps (some states differ on the legally acceptable levels). Phosphates are additives that fight the effects of the minerals found in tap water--the minerals that cause hard water and the related spotting on dishes.



The problem is that without phosphates cooking pots and pans turn grey, aluminium starts to turn black, the glasses have fingerprints and lip prints still on them, and they take on a ‘powdery’ look to them.





Associated articles - “Basic Soap and Detergent Chemistry� - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia...ml#post1474876