are you happy with Obama`s progress so far?

[CHEVYMAN]

One other example :Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

Remember now someone said these cases are few and far between right? (i don`t think so)

[CHEVYMAN]

Please, enlighten me why "socialist" health care reform (specifically, universal health care) is such a bad thing ? As a Canadian who has lived in both types of systems, I can tell you from experience that universal health care is much better. Also, I pose this question to you: Does every American deserve the right to equal health care treatment ? Is it morally right that someone in financially desperate times, who doesn`t have health care insurance because they choose to feed their family instead, gets sick and dies because they can`t afford treatment ? Or loses their home ? Or comes close to losing their business ? There`s a detailer on this very forum that owns and runs his own detail business, who is currently living on the streets because he got sick and can`t afford the hospital bills. He lives in his truck, worries about what`s going to happen, faces bankruptcy, all while trying to build his business up. Maybe you want to tell him that a capitalistic health care system that is only out to make a profit is the best system out there ?



I don`t like saying this, because no one deserves it, but maybe you need to get sick to see how flawed your system is. In my experience, the proponents of the private health care insurance industry are those that have never had to use it to any real extent. Those who are opposed are generally people who have had to use the system, and actually understand how it works.



Oh, and BTW, the government is a not a "dictator". You elect representatives, in both in congress and in the senate, as well as your president. Just because health care becomes universally run by the government, doesn`t make your government a dictatorship. I suggest getting some education on the different types of government that exist before making comments that make you look ignorant.





Those aren`t facts. They`re misrepresentations and they leave out important key elements, that I already mentioned above. It`s what we call "propaganda". Nice of you to completely ignore my comment on doing some research on News Corp`s board of directors. Are you simply unable to look at things objectively ?

Just a small bit of information: If anyone and i mean anyone where to go to any emergency room at any hospital across this great country of ours they would have to take you in whether you have insurance or not..

[Lenny]

The new health care program doesn`t kick in until 2014 and until then you are paying for it NOW. As it gets closer the Government is going to make it where the insurance companies are going to get squeezed out and here comes single payer program.Remember when your president OBAMA said you can keep your provider, that ain`t happening.Your health care will be run by your government and their isn`t anything you can do about it. So sit back and enjoy your new found socialist country. Send all of your taxes to the Government and let the dictator run the country. ENJOY GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and maybe you should sit down and read the bill it`s only 2,500 pages that`s all :spot KEEP DRINKING THE KOOLAID

My wife`s COBRA ran out, and before it happened, we applied for health insurance with different insurance companies.



Except for Blue Cross-Blue Shield of Michigan, we got rejected by every other insurance carrier, all for pre-existing conditions. Mine - I have a little osteoarthritis (no prescription meds taken), and I take Lipitor. Normal for a guy 51 years old. My wife was rejected for having acid reflux, which she handles with OTC Prilosec, and for one prescription she takes for menopause, which hit her as full blown menopause after a hysterectomy.



Blue Cross-Blue Shield of Michigan has to take us, because in 1977, they went bankrupt, and Michigan bailed them out on two conditions: they recharter themselves as a nonprofit, and they have to take anyone. No preexisting conditions exclusion. This is the only state that has this insurance situation right now. Otherwise, my wife & I would be unable to get health insurance that we are willing to pay for. We`re also both still job hunting, and now this unexpected complication now ruins our ability to leave the state to look for jobs else where, until the health care reform bill kicks in 2014 and no insurance company can refuse coverage. I`m well aware what it will do to the insurance companies. Tough. I can`t wait 15 years to get health insurance under Medicaid. I need to be able to buy it now, and have the freedom to relocate without the possibility of losing my health insurance.



So, you pretty much know what I think you can do with the sanctimonious attitude.

[Lenny]

Just a small bit of information: If anyone and i mean anyone where to go to any emergency room at any hospital across this great country of ours they would have to take you in whether you have insurance or not..

Right, like that helps with maintenance health care, for things like, oh, my high cholesterol (which isn`t affect by my losing weight) or the meds my wife has to take, post hysterectomy.

[CHEVYMAN]

HERE`S ANOTHER FROM EUROPE :When Richard Eckley was diagnosed with kidney cancer, doctors offered him an unenviable choice.



If he stayed with the NHS, he would be offered a drug giving him a one in six chance of beating the cancer. If he was willing to pay, he would receive a drug that would double his chances of survival — but he would lose the remainder of his NHS cancer care.



Eckley, 68, a working farmer from Hay-on-Wye, Herefordshire chose the second option and has been denied consultant appointments, scans and blood tests on the NHS.



THIS MUST BE PROPAGANDA TOO! You know i understand our health care isn`t perfect but the direction we are headed is the wrong way. It`s this way and it doesn`t look good

[CHEVYMAN]

Why is everyone dancing around the danger of the Health Care plan that Obama is forcing down our throats, and not looking at the three main problems that will occur because of the bill, that will cause it to fail, and will destroy our economy? It doesn’t take a Political Scientist to be able to examine this attempt at destroying the United States, to bring down our economy and make us have to depend on our enemies; the Arabs and China, for financial support! Let me spell out my thoughts on this by laying out the three main causes of the future Heath Care failure:



1. The high cost of building the new Health Care plan will fall directly on Employers, who will have to cut back on the number of employees they will be able to keep on the job, which will force more Americans out of work, and will begin the “tear-down� of our tax base, which will place an even higher burden on the businesses, and the government, in trying to keep individuals employed! This will build a “snowball� effect on the speed at which our economy will collapse! And the cost of the new program, which will be added to the deductions from employees’ paychecks, will take more money out of Americans’ pockets, and will begin the fall of our way of life! In the end, no matter how you look at it, this will force American citizens into a position where they will become dependent upon the government, just to survive!



2. Insurance companies are businesses; they have Heath Care policies because it is a “profit-motivated� business and, when their costs of maintaining their Health Care policies becomes such a financial burden that they will no longer see any future profit in Health Care, they will drop it from their companies, and there will no longer be any Private Health Care policies available to the American citizens, which will force us into Obama’s “Single-payer� program, and he will state that he �didn’t want to force it on us�, but �the end of private Health Care policies forced him to do it!� This is something he not only knows will happen, but it is something he is doing everything he can to make happen!



3. Like many European countries that have Government Health Care, we will see a lack of jobs for our youth, and parents will see their kids moving back into their homes, as in France, just so they can survive the upcoming collapse of our economy! That will place a huge burden on the parents, which will lower their standard of living, and will make things like food, utilities, house payments, and every other basic necessity of life almost impossible to afford, and the government will “have to step in, just to SAVE the citizens!� And, when it gets that difficult to simply be able to survive, people who are currently living on the government’s money will not have the money they need to eat, and housing to live in, so they will hit the streets, and our crime rate will skyrocket!



These three problems will happen, they will force our economy into failure, and America will become the new “third-world� economy! By building this bill in the manner that they did, the Progressives have guaranteed that our economy will fall apart, and the citizens of this nation will have to look to the government for support! We need to fight this, every single inch of the way, in the Progressives’ efforts to make it the “law of the land�! There is no other way to say this but, if we want to survive the next three years of our coming history, we need to do whatever is necessary to end this Progressive foolishness, and end this Health Care Bill before it can even get started! If anyone has been standing back, waiting to see what will happen, before they get involved; this is the time to get up and work as hard as you can to protect our great nation from the threat of Progressive control over our lives! None of us want to see any form of violence in and effort to end this attack on our economy but, if we do not work now, we will have no other choice in the future! So; get up, get involved, and let’s end this bill before it becomes the Law of the Land!



WAKE UP AMERICANS, OR LOSE AMERICA!

[WAS]

Get ready America this is what`s coming:Ontario recorded the shortest wait time overall (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment) at 15.0 weeks, followed by British Columbia (19.0 weeks) and Quebec (19.4 weeks). Saskatchewan (27.2 weeks), New Brunswick (25.2 weeks) and Nova Scotia (24.8 weeks) recorded the longest waits in Canada. This is what happens when the Government doesn`t want to listen to the people

Treatment for WHAT ? Again, I state, if you`re a soccer player and you fubar`d your knee, and you had to wait 15 weeks for surgery (but could more or less function fine, and delayed surgery didn`t affect the end result), then so what ? Yet again, the guy with the need for bypass surgery came first. Can`t really argue with that.

One other example :Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

Remember now someone said these cases are few and far between right? (i don`t think so)

Where did Aucoin get treatment ? Why did she have to submit a reimbursement claim ? Is Erbitux approved for use in Canada ? Is it an experimental drug that isn`t proven yet ? There are so many variables that aren`t answered by your quote. And wow, you came up with a single Ontarian`s story of not being covered. Tens of thousands of people get treatment every day in Ontario, and you found a single one that has some issues. Like I said before, you will ALWAYS find an exception to the rule, in any country and in any system.

Just a small bit of information: If anyone and i mean anyone where to go to any emergency room at any hospital across this great country of ours they would have to take you in whether you have insurance or not..

Really ? Have you ever watched Sicko ? If you have, you`ll remember the story of the small infant who had a very high temp / fever. Her mother took her to the nearest ER, where she was refused treatment because that hospital wasn`t on her insurance`s "approved list". The child had to be taken to a different hospital, many miles away. The little girl died as a result. Oh, how about this story instead:



Jenny Fritts was 24 years old. Jenny lived with her husband Sean for the past five years, and together they had a little girl named Kylee, 2. Jenny was seven-and-a-half months pregnant with her second child – a beautiful, baby girl.



Jenny is dead. Jenny’s unborn baby is dead. They died because they were turned away for appropriate care at a for-profit hospital because they did not have health insurance. Sean rushed Jenny back to another hospital when her symptoms became even more severe, and he lied about having insurance to get her in the door. She was placed on a respirator in intensive care, but she didn’t make it. She died. And so did her baby.



They become two more of the more than 45,000 Americans who die preventable deaths due to our broken healthcare system every year. Two more. Mother and child.

Source: US Healthcare History: Our Very Own Killing Fields | Guaranteed Healthcare



I can play this game all day long.

[WAS]

1. The high cost of building the new Health Care plan will fall directly on Employers, who will have to cut back on the number of employees they will be able to keep on the job, which will force more Americans out of work, and will begin the “tear-down� of our tax base, which will place an even higher burden on the businesses, and the government, in trying to keep individuals employed! This will build a “snowball� effect on the speed at which our economy will collapse! And the cost of the new program, which will be added to the deductions from employees’ paychecks, will take more money out of Americans’ pockets, and will begin the fall of our way of life! In the end, no matter how you look at it, this will force American citizens into a position where they will become dependent upon the government, just to survive!

Why will the new Health Care plan fall on employers ? Employers in Canada don`t pay directly for their employees health care.... The system in funded through federal taxes paid by employees, employers and businesses. There isn`t a "specific" tax just for health care. OK, so say your pay cheque gets deducted $100 more per month because of the new health care plan. How much is the average (not the cheapest, but the AVERAGE) monthly health care insurance plan ? Last time I looked into moving to Florida, the average cost for a decent plan (that had between $1500 and $3500 co-pays) was about $65 a month for me, as a non-smoker and non-drinker. The amount jumped up to $90 if I was a "casual" drinker. So yes, maybe you`ll pay a bit more in taxes, but you won`t be paying your private health care insurance premium. Make sense ?

2. Insurance companies are businesses; they have Heath Care policies because it is a “profit-motivated� business and, when their costs of maintaining their Health Care policies becomes such a financial burden that they will no longer see any future profit in Health Care, they will drop it from their companies, and there will no longer be any Private Health Care policies available to the American citizens, which will force us into Obama’s “Single-payer� program, and he will state that he �didn’t want to force it on us�, but �the end of private Health Care policies forced him to do it!� This is something he not only knows will happen, but it is something he is doing everything he can to make happen!

.... Either I`m not reading this correctly, or you`re simply strengthening my argument. Insurance companies are for profit, they don`t care about your health, and they don`t care if you live or die. They care about making money, that`s it.

3. Like many European countries that have Government Health Care, we will see a lack of jobs for our youth, and parents will see their kids moving back into their homes, as in France, just so they can survive the upcoming collapse of our economy! That will place a huge burden on the parents, which will lower their standard of living, and will make things like food, utilities, house payments, and every other basic necessity of life almost impossible to afford, and the government will “have to step in, just to SAVE the citizens!� And, when it gets that difficult to simply be able to survive, people who are currently living on the government’s money will not have the money they need to eat, and housing to live in, so they will hit the streets, and our crime rate will skyrocket!

A lack of jobs for youth because of government health care ? What the hell ? Is every youth in America employed in the private health care insurance business ? I don`t know what you think, but here in Canada, it`s pretty easy for a youth to begin a career in health care. The NHA program (Nursing Home Attendant) is an 8 month course, and certifies you as a level 1 nurse. Your method of thinking makes absolutely no sense. You make it sound like private health care is what is running your country, and without it, America is nothing. That is simply untrue.

These three problems will happen, they will force our economy into failure, and America will become the new “third-world� economy! By building this bill in the manner that they did, the Progressives have guaranteed that our economy will fall apart, and the citizens of this nation will have to look to the government for support! We need to fight this, every single inch of the way, in the Progressives’ efforts to make it the “law of the land�! There is no other way to say this but, if we want to survive the next three years of our coming history, we need to do whatever is necessary to end this Progressive foolishness, and end this Health Care Bill before it can even get started! If anyone has been standing back, waiting to see what will happen, before they get involved; this is the time to get up and work as hard as you can to protect our great nation from the threat of Progressive control over our lives! None of us want to see any form of violence in and effort to end this attack on our economy but, if we do not work now, we will have no other choice in the future! So; get up, get involved, and let’s end this bill before it becomes the Law of the Land!



WAKE UP AMERICANS, OR LOSE AMERICA!

Wow. Just, wow. You know, Canada didn`t always have universal health care. Until 1946, we had no universal health care. It wasn`t until 1961 when wide-spread universal health care reached all provinces in Canada. Today, we still have this system. Our economy didn`t collapse, we aren`t communists, and the WHO (World Health Organization) ranks us 7 countries higher than the USA in health care. You, sir, have some very strong opinions which are based on some very infactual data. I really hope you educate yourself a bit better, because making decsions when you don`t have all the correct information is one of the worst things to do.

[CHEVYMAN]

OH BOY YOU JUST KEEP DRINKING THAT KOOL- AID. BECAUSE IF YOU BELIEVE "SICKO" THEN YOU HAVE FALLEN UNDER THE SPELL AND THEIR IS NO TURNING BACK. SO SAD, YES, SO SAD Another one bites the dust GOOD LUCK!!!

[CHEVYMAN]

I can come up with so many examples and you will always say that it`s an exception to the rule I can do this all day and you will always be right. BLA BLA BLA .Sounds just like our left wingers we have in the Government, they know whats right for us whether we want it or not.Just shove it down our throats even though 75-80% of the country does not want this.

[WAS]

OH BOY YOU JUST KEEP DRINKING THAT KOOL- AID. BECAUSE IF YOU BELIEVE "SICKO" THEN YOU HAVE FALLEN UNDER THE SPELL AND THEIR IS NO TURNING BACK. SO SAD, YES, SO SAD Another one bites the dust GOOD LUCK!!!

Why is it that if I believe Sicko, I have fallen under a spell ? Are you saying that Sicko is a complete work of fiction ? And, ummmmmmm, again, I live in a country with universal health care, and I haven`t bitten the dust quite yet

I can come up with so many examples and you will always say that it`s an exception to the rule I can do this all day and you will always be right. BLA BLA BLA .Sounds just like our left wingers we have in the Government, they know whats right for us whether we want it or not.Just shove it down our throats even though 75-80% of the country does not want this.

And for every example you come up with, I can give you one from your own country (actually, I can give you three or four, simply because your population is bigger). I question, why do you say 75% to 80% of the country does not want universal health care ? Even if that figure were true, what`s the reasoning ? Bottom line is, most Americans have no idea what any other system is like, they have not lived in a different system and have not experienced it first hand. It`s the common "the system is OK, so why change it" mentality. But in reality, the system is not OK, and like I said, most of its proponents lobby in favour for it simply because they`ve never had to use it and don`t fully understand it.



I asked you many times in this thread whether you had first hand experience with other countries and how they handle their health care systems. You have yet to answer with anything more constructive than "KEEP DRINKING THAT KOOL-AID". Actually, judging from your avatar picture, I`m not really expecting much else....

[Lenny]

I can come up with so many examples and you will always say that it`s an exception to the rule I can do this all day and you will always be right. BLA BLA BLA .Sounds just like our left wingers we have in the Government, they know whats right for us whether we want it or not.Just shove it down our throats even though 75-80% of the country does not want this.

What a load of crap. How come you have zip to say about insurance companies denying coverage for preexisting conditions that many people over 50 have? And we aren`t taking about heart disease or cancer, smart guy. We`re talking about being denied coverage for mild arthritis that`s taken care of over-the-counter Aleve, and acid reflux that`s taken care of with over-the-counter Prilosec. Or your answers are to just kiss the insurance companies collective behinds? G** d***, your sanctimonious crap makes me sick.

[CHEVYMAN]

Listen and listen good , i told you our system has its flaws (like preexisting conditions) but when universal health care has major problems where ever it`s been tried . You don`t go and try it yourself when time and time again it doesn`t work. IT`S LIKE STICKING YOUR HAND IN A FIRE,IF IT BURNS YOU WON`T DO IT AGAIN. And as far as you going all over the world and experiencing health care here and there, What`s to say i have to believe you. If you believe in SICKO I`m supposed to believe you ? GULP GULP



HAPPY ?

[Lenny]

Listen and listen good , i told you are system has it`s flaws (like preexisting conditions) but when universal health care has major problems where ever it`s been tried . You don`t go and try it yourself when time and time again it doesn`t work. IT`S LIKE STICKING YOUR HAND IN A FIRE,IF IT BURNS YOU WON`T DO IT AGAIN. And as far as you going all over the world and experiencing health care here and there, What`s to say i have to believe you. If you believe in SICKO I`m supposed to believe you ? GULP GULP

You listen & listen good (which I doubt you can do):



1. I never said diddly about SICKO. Never saw it, probably won`t. Never liked Micheal Moore - saw too much of his mug on Detroit TV news.



2. You`re theorizing the worse and further theorizing that we`ll end up with national health care.



3. universal health care & national health care aren`t necessarily the same thing



I`d be happy to argue the point, but I detailed a 2002 Explorer & a 2008 Taurus, and I`m exhausted.

[CHEVYMAN]

You listen & listen good (which I doubt you can do):



1. I never said diddly about SICKO. Never saw it, probably won`t. Never liked Micheal Moore - saw too much of his mug on Detroit TV news.



2. You`re theorizing the worse and further theorizing that we`ll end up with national health care.



3. universal health care & national health care aren`t necessarily the same thing



I`d be happy to argue the point, but I detailed a 2002 Explorer & a 2008 Taurus, and I`m exhausted.

That wasn`t for you go and relax. Come back in 2014 and then tell me i was wrong with my theory.The only way we are going to get out of this spiral is if the republicans win the house and the senate. Don`t think for a minute that i don`t feel bad about you not having a job,believe me i feel bad when anyone looses a job.I can only wish you the best of luck in finding one.The problem people don`t want to realize what`s coming,and i myself hope and pray to God it never comes.