sweet post !
Very interesting read. Thanks for putting that together Todd. It`s great to have Jason and Kevin on the board providing this type of information...
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Originally Posted by Pats300zx
I don`t know Jason, but I am also glad to see Kevin posting more over here recently!!!
Ridding the world of swirls, one car at a time!
Glad to see this thread. I`ve been talking with people a lot about touchless car washes and their spray waxes causing havoc with some/most compounds. The issue I have now, as rydawg mentioned, is how to remove whatever is on the paint without doubling the time the job would normally require. Products like TAW, prepsol, etc help, but not a great deal.
Well, it would make sense that the polymer system of the paint, the steel underneath and plastic panels would expand and contract due to heat and cold. One must remember that everything solid just appears solid. There are tiny empty spaces in and between molecules. Heating the paint by mechanical abrasion due to a foam pad could cause expansion of the paint(I don`t think I`d call that swelling). I still don`t buy into the claim that solvents themselves can "swell" cured paint. Sure solvents can work their way into microscopic pores but if they really swelled(increased the space between molecules) the paint I`d suspect that they would begin to degrade the paint in some manner. As for oils lets take another analogy-lets consider a jar filled with sand(which is full) and then add some "trade secret" oils. I`d bet that the "trade secret" oils would fill the spaces between the grains of sand. Maybe it`s possible that that is what is happening on a microscopic level with paint. As the paint sits out in the sun and heat those oils work their way back to the surface.
Pretty interesting reading! It was about a year ago that Anthony Orosco wrote about a theory that Menzerna might temporarily swell paint:
Could Menzerna Be Smoke & Mirrors? - Optimum Forum
On at least one other forum (not here or at MOL) he took a lot of heat for posting that idea....... looks like he might have been on to something.
John
Hmmm- Let`s look at this a different way.
If the body of the car is, in fact, expanding and contracting, but the paint is merely stretching to remain attached...
Wouldn`t the paint actually be thinner when the body is expanded, and thicker when contracted? :nervous:
We could test this by simply taking a reading of a panel when cool versus warm.
That being said...
Wouldn`t the paint measure as thinner where we just polished it (using a machine & pad that generated heat through friction?
I suppose that if we looked at the paint as-if it was built via cross-links, the links could expand and contract (like inter-twined rubber bands attached like a fishing net).
I picture paint as being void of big spaces or tiny round pores... Not stating that as fact- Just ruminating.
This is a great topic of discussion!
Fascinating thread and thanks again to all who contributed. I love the science of this stuff and unfortunately won`t live enough days ahead to figure all this out!
Originally Posted by iamwaxman
Usually non-metallics have a higher coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) than metals, and since a piece of sheetmetal like a car hood is much, much larger in the lateral dimensions than it is in thickness, so yes, the paint could be stretched, thinner if the metal is hot, but the paint will also be getting thicker (as the metal will be) as it gets hot.
The thing is if the steel (using a steel hood example) is 4` wide but only .030 thick, and it expands 5%, it will grow only .0015 in thickness, but .200 in width. For whatever that is worth, probably nothing.
Well, it`s a definite that steel expands with heat. I saw a show on the discovery channel that they determined the expansion rate of the steel for the Golden Gate Bridge so that as the sun warmed the steel it would expand enough to drop the bolts in to connect both sides.
And if plastics expand more than steel that would explain why some are having less durability on plastic panels vs steel.
Based on what I`ve read the paint system is polymer based so if it can stretch then it would reason that sealants attached to the paint would stretch as well.
So as I`m understanding this should be our prep process:
Wash
Clay (w/lube)
Prepsol/Dawn/APC/etc (aka deep cleaning "wash")
Compound/Polish
The deep cleaning wash is needed to remove anything left from the clay step that could adversely affect the Compounding/Polishing step, correct? Otherwise clay lubes and residual waxes/sealants are working AGAINST our paint reconditioning work?
If the above is true then one could also argue that the oils/mineral spirits in compounds/polishes could also be having an adverse affect on the next polishing step. So we should be doing a prepsol step in between every polishing step? I guess if you were using very similar products then it wouldn`t matter as much?
Also I was thinking yesterday as I bought a new bottle of Wax and Grease remover: Wouldn`t it be beneficial to use a prepsol type product BEFORE claying? I would assume something more intrusive like prepsol can only help remove contaminants that you are trying to remove via clay bar.
To take it to a further extreme: Could one totally eliminate claying by doing a prepsol step instead? Or are there still contaminants left behind that only claying can remove? When prepping a surface for refinishing I`ve never heard of clay bar being used-only prepsol + tack cloth types of prep-and I would assume claying would be mandatory in the paint refinshing industry if it were the only way to truely prep a panel (not just for removing overspray and for paint reconditioning prep ).
Just some random thoughts here from a hobbiest...
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You need to clay before prepsol. Prepsol will not remove debris from paint as good as clay. Prepsol will not remove embedded silicon from paint. Prepsol will not even remove all polishing lubes from paint, especially on newer factory paints. I always use 91% straight IPA for proper inspection.
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Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy
Metallics usually do not have this problem. The metallics hold the clear like a tight bond.
Blacks are always the number one issue as I am sure some of you already have experienced this. Reds can also be a pain, but not as bad as black. It has nothing to do with it just being black and you just notice more.
I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours examining problem paints on different colors and blacks always seem to absorb silicones like a magnet. I think with it being black, that it gets so hot siiting in the sun that everything just melts right into the paint.
Then you have your soft paints like Honda, Porsche, etc, that everything just sinks right into the paint. We all know what a black Honda looks like when poor dealer prep and products are used. A year later it starts cracking the paint, especially the hood where it gets blasted with the engine heat also. If these cars get silicone latched into the paint, it is all over. You start getting those tiny little white specs in the paint and some will even get these white/gray patchy blotches after a few years. After 3 years, the paint starts to have the hazy look that looks like scaling which I call crazing. Crazing is the form of dried up silicone ready to release from the paint. Sometimes it takes a thin layer of the paint with it leaving behind premature paint failure.
Hard paints like some BMW`s, C5 Vettes, Audi`s, etc. are much more forgiving due to the harder clears and silicone usually comes off in a few hours. I really wish all paints were like this.
Raising The Gloss Bar One Car At a Time!
UNIQUE POLISHING, MA / NH
Ryan Blanchette
Thanks for the post, I learned a lot.
My question is do we have to polish outside once the paint is hot as hell? If the paint is going to "swell" after it is sitting outside(after you polished) and it is going to show defects do we have to do it outside under the sun when its already expanded? Am I making sense?
Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy
So, assuming we have striped the paint of all polymers & silicons, if heating up paint reveals defects that are not seen when the paint is cooler, then heating up the paint when we are compounding/polishing to remove defects would be ideal. If no defects are present after that process there should be no defects returning regardless of the molecular state the paint is in. Correct?
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