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  1. #16
    Kevin Brown's Avatar
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    Todd



    I am glad to have corresponded with you via phone and e-mail.

    As you now know, my friend Jason Rose is a wealth of information. He truly respects the company he works for and takes seriously the products they send to market.

    Jason is a man genuinely concerned that the end-user will be satisfied with the performance of the products Meguiar`s offers.

    He`s also a major reason M86, M95, M105, and D151 work as well as they do (he`s one-part of a talented Meguiar`s R&D team).



    The reason I contacted you directly (rather than through the forum) was to have a discussion about the paint-swelling mystery (with credit sometimes given to `paint-fillers`).



    This phenomenon has been identified as paint-filling or paint-swelling, and many times we don`t even realize it`s occurred until much time has passed.

    Once discovered we blurt, "The paint just shrunk back on me- Dang!"

    When our hard work later shows instilled defects that we certainly did not see upon our wrap-up of the polishing session, it`s a real drag.



    I wanted to offer information (as well as correct some terminology being used) that would dispel a notion that identified specific Meguiar`s liquids as having `fillers`.

    The fillers were credited with an ability to mask defects (NOT something we desire when we`re trying to ELIMINATE them!)



    No matter how I`d have worded it, my post might have come across as all-knowing, brash, offensive, confrontational, etc.

    After all, I am not a frequent poster here on autopia, so I don`t expect to post a strong statement and not be called to the mat over it.

    If I didn`t word things just so, the discussion could have taken a turn in a negative direction- And I`m just not in to the online fist-fight thing.

    So, rather than post an opinion on it, I decided to contact you directly.



    My hope was to discuss, learn, and inform... To help if I could, too.

    Lucky for us all, you hopped on the phone and called (talking directly with people is always better, so the call was appreciated).

    Your willingness to take the lead ended in a scenario where Jason was able to easily share valuable information in a simple and well-received manner (I hope I`ve dropped a few pennies into the fountain as well!)



    Thanks a lot for your professionalism, trust, and follow through on the matter.

  2. #17
    Kevin Brown's Avatar
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    By the way... Jason`s statements (listed below) do not mean the mentioned products will be on/in the paint for eternity.

    Rather, he`s cautioning that diminished performance (and disappointing results) might be anticipated the next time you work on the paint... Not every time thereafter.



    "A paint loaded up with durable polymers will definitely throw off subsequent compound and polish performance...", and , "...Some of these products, like Meguiar’s UQD, M135 Synthetic Spray Detailer, or Tech Wax 2.0 or M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 can have a lasting impact on a paint finish…To the extent of throwing off the performance of compounds and polishes in a subsequent application. "

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamwaxman

    Once discovered we blurt, "The paint just shrunk back on me- Dang!"


    This also clarifies (if I am reading this properly) MY personal theory that heating up the paint (Mostly with a foam pad, which not to get off topic...but this could very well have played a factor in a recent differing of opinions...ie wool vs foam use) would cause the paint to SWELL, not shrink as some suggested earlier in this thread. That swelling *could* possibly in turn close otherwise microscopic gaps in the paint temporarily.



    Then, as the surface cools it would return to its original, and still damaged form.



    This is one reason I like to hop around to different sections of the car instead of working one area from beginning to end. This way there is time for the paint to cool and I can check my work before deciding that what I did was 100%.



    This thread has great information, and I too am thankful that it was shared :2thumbs:

  4. #19
    Kevin Brown's Avatar
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    Sure makes me wonder if even the action of the machine plays a roll in this (theoretically inducing NO heat)...

    The pushing, pulling, and twisting actions applied to the paint (comes to mind after Jason`s comparison of stretching one`s skin).



    I suppose one could just apply liquid to a portion of a panel in a non-invasive way...

    And on another section of the panel apply it via machine... Measure the results.



    Or- Maybe a machine could be run across a test-panel with NO liquid being applied...

    And compare it to another section WITH liquid being applied.



    Or- Use an air-powered machine and polish a test pan, using only the pad (sans polish) under water (to minimize heat generation)...

    And then test a section the same panel with the same procedure used in the water... But this time test it out of the water.



    Of course, maybe water would enter the equation...



    Forget it. :sadpace:

  5. #20
    MarcHarris's Avatar
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    great info and a good read!



    i feel when it comes to waxes, sealants, compounds, polishes, glazes, APCs, etc, etc - its best to understand the scientific value of whats happening so that you can get the best result possible.



    shout-out to megs. real stand up thing to inform the community on products and procedures: the good and bad. while i doubt any company tries to truly misinform their customers, we`ve seen too often what happens with shady marketing. from denial/ignorance of how the product really works, to lame "carnauba percentages" being broadcast in waxes.

    i`d rather use a product that i know and understand it`s faults so i may use it to its full potential, than to try something with mystery results/flaws
    Marc Harris from AutoLavish Fine Automobile Care of Michigan

  6. #21

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    Very informative and valuable thread. Thanks to all involved in putting this information together so that everybody can learn equally from it.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydawg
    I`ve always said it... certain qd`s, car wash waxes, and waxes loaded with tons of silicones are more damage on a car than not protecting it at all.


    Post up a picture of that black CTS that had the silicon stains in the paint. That thing had some issues!

  8. #23
    JAFO Junebug's Avatar
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    In my limited experience, I`ve seen that Menzerna polishes - even after a IPO wipe down affected the bonding of Zaino on a car I detailed. It`s not a big jump to see that if the polish was still there enough to affect bonding - then it could be enough to affect the looks too, as in maybe there were a few swirls that were covered instead of eliminated.



    Is it possible to really get 100% clean, polished paint with no by-products left and then add a sealer/wax. Will the LSP add some filling? Does it matter? - I know the answer to that one for my customers - NO, I only hear," I wanna purdy shine and clean out the floorboards, and don`t worry bout that dog hair in the back - deer season is coming."

  9. #24

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    Best thread ever.....



    Thanks Todd for posting this and giving extra effort to help us all out. Also thanks to the gentlemen from Meguiars for being so open.



    IME panels that have been repainted stand more of a chance of having defects masked. At least that is what is happening with me on this black Benz I am working on. At least five panels have been repainted, they are softer then the OEM paint on the rest of the car and on the thin side. They heat up very quick.



    I did a ABC paint decontamination wash and have been doing wipedowns with prep solv and IPA. The OEM paint/clear even though harder and requiring more steps to correct, actually took less time to figure out a process. There will be fewer polishing steps on the repainted panels, but the process used for each polishing step is much slower.



    I spent over an hour on the phone with Ryan yesterday and we where able to figure out a process that so far has worked on the repainted panels. Today is cooler out, so we shall see....
    Bryan Burnworth - Atlanta Car Detailing - Peachstate Detail LLC

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  10. #25
    Just a regular guy Todd@RUPES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamwaxman
    Todd



    I am glad to have corresponded with you via phone and e-mail.

    As you now know, my friend Jason Rose is a wealth of information. He truly respects the company he works for and takes seriously the products they send to market.

    Jason is a man genuinely concerned that the end-user will be satisfied with the performance of the products Meguiar`s offers.

    He`s also a major reason M86, M95, M105, and D151 work as well as they do (he`s one-part of a talented Meguiar`s R&D team).



    The reason I contacted you directly (rather than through the forum) was to have a discussion about the paint-swelling mystery (with credit sometimes given to `paint-fillers`).



    This phenomenon has been identified as paint-filling or paint-swelling, and many times we don`t even realize it`s occurred until much time has passed.

    Once discovered we blurt, "The paint just shrunk back on me- Dang!"

    When our hard work later shows instilled defects that we certainly did not see upon our wrap-up of the polishing session, it`s a real drag.



    I wanted to offer information (as well as correct some terminology being used) that would dispel a notion that identified specific Meguiar`s liquids as having `fillers`.

    The fillers were credited with an ability to mask defects (NOT something we desire when we`re trying to ELIMINATE them!)



    No matter how I`d have worded it, my post might have come across as all-knowing, brash, offensive, confrontational, etc.

    After all, I am not a frequent poster here on autopia, so I don`t expect to post a strong statement and not be called to the mat over it.

    If I didn`t word things just so, the discussion could have taken a turn in a negative direction- And I`m just not in to the online fist-fight thing.

    So, rather than post an opinion on it, I decided to contact you directly.



    My hope was to discuss, learn, and inform... To help if I could, too.

    Lucky for us all, you hopped on the phone and called (talking directly with people is always better, so the call was appreciated).

    Your willingness to take the lead ended in a scenario where Jason was able to easily share valuable information in a simple and well-received manner (I hope I`ve dropped a few pennies into the fountain as well!)



    Thanks a lot for your professionalism, trust, and follow through on the matter.


    Kevin, I TRUTHFULLY cannot thank you enough for your vaulable information you shared with me openly.



    Kevin approched me in an email, basically correcting some information about Meguiars M105 that I had posted. He came across as so knowledgable and open that I had to call him. With in 2 minutes of talking with him, I knew it was better to keep my mouth shut and my ears open as Kevin is an absolute wealth of knowledge and experience. After years of trying to find factual and sensible information with out mysticism and defense, I was simply blown away.



    Kevin put me (via email) into contact with Jason Rose from Meguairs, who again is another guy who has likely forgotten more about true detailing then I know. He was open to having his thoughts posted for everybody to learn, and to me and my experience with several different manufacturers this was beyond refreshing.



    Information as told to me by Kevin and as posted from Jason should be the cornerstone of any successful detailing community. This is the foundation that allows us all to grow.



    Or in Junebug`s case make paint really shiney for deer season

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokeman
    Post up a picture of that black CTS that had the silicon stains in the paint. That thing had some issues!


    I`ll try to do that later.. I have a few cars that show some great pictures. One shows the silicone actually falling out of shiny paint revealing some messed up swirly paint. I litterally grabbed a chair and just watched as it all outgased out of the paint.
    Raising The Gloss Bar One Car At a Time!

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  12. #27

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    I have also had the pleasure of speaking with Kevin Brown (iamwaxman) on the phone a couple of times in the past regarding products and techniques. He is truly one of the 5 or 6 guys I really look up to, and aspire to be as good as one day. He is open and upfront and extremely helpful.



    Thanks Kevin, Jason, and Todd for posting this here.



    EDIT - Todd - shooting you an email
    Ridding the world of swirls, one car at a time!

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by TH0001
    ...Jason Rose from Meguairs, who again is another guy who has likely forgotten more about true detailing then I know. ...
    Nah, Jason has a really good memory. He never forgets anything.



    (And I know you know a lot too.)





    PC.

  14. #29

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    Great post and thanks to all that have contributed to this thread, especially Todd, Jason, and Kevin.
    Devil Pad

    Professional Automotive Detailing

  15. #30

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    So I was just about to claybar a car im working on...I have been using Optimum Instant Detailer & Gloss Enhancer. This has everything in it that were not supposed to be using right?



    What should I be using for a lube while clay barring the vehicle that doesnt contain the mentioned chemicals??
    Presidential Automotive Detailing - Tampa, FL - Click To See our latest Details and Customer Reviews

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