Electric cars DIRTIER and COST MORE to run per mile... Say it ain`t so......

[Setec Astronomy]

They also didn`t take into the environmental impacts with oil, and how much energy is used to transport and refine it to usable gasoline! *It takes 4-7.5 kWh to refine one gallon of gasoline and a typical EV can travel 16 miles on 4kwh (20 miles on 7.5kwh) that figure alone is way better than the 10Mpg my SRT8 gets!

That was an interesting point that a relative made to me recently--that the infrastructure to transport the electricity for an EV is hanging there on the pole (passively), while the gasoline has to be actively transported to the gas station, and you have to drive there to get it.

I have to laugh at some of the whole discussion about this stuff--after the `73 oil embargo, when we (the US) embarked on the whole CAFE thing, while at the same time struggling under the full implementation of the Clean Air Act, we fell into the "dark days" and there was plenty of doom and gloom to go around, about how cars would never be fun again.

However, the technology developed to solve those problems resulted in the fantastic cars of the 90`s, 00`s, and today--with horsepower and drivability and yes, economy, undreamed of even in the muscle-car heyday of the 60`s. Sure, part of what happened was that gas didn`t get as expensive as predicted, so the efficiency gains were redirected to generate more power rather than more mileage.

We can already see some of the high performance car companies implementing hybrid and EV technologies in innovative ways, and down the road some of these approaches and technologies will simply become mainstream and unnoticed by the consumer.

[4u2nvinmtl]

Jeremy Clarkson pointed out that you have to consider ALL the steps in making an EV - from the batteries and the shipping all over the world to the disposal of the hazardous waste. I definitely think one should really look at all the aspects before running out to "save the planet" with an EV. If, you just compare prices for a small car, feature for feature then look at the bottom line, how long would it take you to start saving money due to higher mpg? I compared a few and it was 5+ years before you would. Add in the cost of battery replacement and it`s longer. But, drive what you like and makes YOU happy, I don`t own a single share of stock in any car company!

Are we talking about saving money or the environment? If we`re talking about saving money a bicycle (or walking/jogging) is the cheapest form of efficient & acceptable transportation and it`s good for the environment. The cheapest way to get around without using your own steam is a used motorcycle some of them are as efficient as 100MPG`s. My old 300cc Honda ATV was very good on gas (~50mpg) and a blast to drive. If you have to get a car, an old used Carolla is probably the cheapest to run per mile in gas and repairs, etc.

Environmentally speaking hydrogen cars are the cleanest -IMHO- (depending on how the hydrogen is produced) because they emit O2 and H2O!

People never consider all the steps and energy needed to make gasoline when they do these types of calculations. I had read that it takes something like 4 gallons of crude oil to extract 5 gallons of crude oil (net profit of one gallon) and that`s just crude oil extraction/transport not including refinement to gasoline...

[Ronkh]

However, the technology developed to solve those problems resulted in the fantastic cars of the 90`s, 00`s, and today--with horsepower and drivability and yes, economy, undreamed of even in the muscle-car heyday of the 60`s. Sure, part of what happened was that gas didn`t get as expensive as predicted, so the efficiency gains were redirected to generate more power rather than more mileage.

We can already see some of the high performance car companies implementing hybrid and EV technologies in innovative ways, and down the road some of these approaches and technologies will simply become mainstream and unnoticed by the consumer.

[4u2nvinmtl]

why should I consider all those steps before I buy such a vehicle?

Only if you`re actively trying to be part of a solution...

Do I need to think before I put a plastic bottle into a recycling container in a fast food establishment?

I do, but most don`t. I actually investigated and found out that my city put`s over 66% of recyclables into the landfill because the recycling plant is way over capacity, so I save myself time (and subsequently money) by just tossing my recyclables into the trash.

Since you put it in consumer terms, if I keep my vehicles 10+ years, why shouldn`t I, as a consumer, buy a hybrid vehicle that will result in lower fuel costs over the lifecycle of the vehicle?

You should.

Why should I as a consumer care about shipping and hazardous waste?

...I hope this was rhetorical but in case it wasn`t; you should care because hazardous waste is bad for the environment and is a detriment to human life as are the resources consumed to transport goods consumed by consumers. Do you really think that capitalist driven oil company`s and oil Sheik`s are looking out for the environment? <- Rhetorical

[Setec Astronomy]

I hope this was rhetorical but in case it wasn`t

I was making the point that arguments against EV/Hybrids typically rely on the consumer making distinctions that they make for no other purchases, and the double standard implied by that.

[4u2nvinmtl]

We need that for everything, not just for cars. If we could power everything else with solar or wind (or nuclear), then we could keep the gasoline for cars! What we really need is a breakthrough in solar cost or efficiency, so we can plaster everything with solar cells. And then we need a breakthrough in battery technology so we can store that power. I`m not too optimistic for either.

Honestly, the problem is that there`s laws/regulations in place from preventing your average Joe from generating too much electricity and/or becoming self-sufficient (in many states it`s even illegal to just gather rain water!). A friend of mine was generating more power than he could use and he was locked up for operating a power generating station without the proper paperwork, permits, and zoning, he was charged criminally (I think he did ~9 months in jail and they took away all his windmills and water wheels).

You can check for yourself, the government doesn`t want people living off the "grid". They control the resources and services while we play with the money.

[Setec Astronomy]

You can check for yourself, the government doesn`t want people living off the "grid". They control the resources and services while we play with the money.

That may be in CAN more than in the US...it`s perfectly legal in my state (not to say you don`t have to have permits to install), but I certainly have read about the power companies pushing back (in HI particularly). Let`s face it, power generation is big business, and we know big-business protects itself any way it can--with lobbyists and laws as applicable.

[allenk4]

No more Taxpayer funded incentives to purchase alternative fuel vehicles priced over $30k

If you want a $100k Tesla, you can certainly have it, but you should not expect the rest of use to kick in $8,000 for the Federal Tax Credit so You can claim you are saving the planet

Send that $8k to India and buy some propane cooking stoves....the impact would be much higher

[Setec Astronomy]

If you want a $100k Tesla, you can certainly have it, but you should not expect the rest of use to kick in $8,000 for the Federal Tax Credit so You can claim you are saving the planet

Why is it if you buy a fuel-efficient vehicle, you are "saving the planet"? Do you ridicule your customers who have little cars and tell them they should drive a Suburban?

This reminds me of the 70`s when there were the muscle-car guys and the sports car guys--they were just guys with different tastes. Some guys liked to go fast in a straight line, some guys liked to go fast around curves (of course, with the technology gains noted previously, now you can have both).

If I like brunettes over blondes, am I saving the planet from hair-dye residue?

[allenk4]

I had read that it takes something like 4 gallons of crude oil to extract 5 gallons of crude oil (net profit of one gallon) and that`s just crude oil extraction/transport not including refinement to gasoline...

Please provide additional substantiation for your statement above

Thanks

[4u2nvinmtl]

Your not driving it right (J/K)! That`s very incredible!!

[4u2nvinmtl]

Please provide additional substantiation for your statement above

Thanks

Google isn`t finding the article (it was shared on Facebook). I`m not saying it`s fact, it`s just something I read that sounded very surprising as the oil company`s don`t like to share this type of information.

I can assume/speculate that it was a worse case scenario about oil drilling platforms as it takes a lot of fuel to move them around.

[Swanicyouth]

Down my way, we got some real OG zero emission drivers.... If you want to save the planet, I suggest hooking up with these dudes.

[Junebug]

As a matter fact, we were looking at new houses a while back and energy savings was high on the list. And when the washer or fridge quits (don`t you love that) we always buy energy star rated replacements, so it`s NOT just cars that I look at in the energy savings. The last car I bought was a 2014 Honda Civic EX-L for my youngest daughter. It gets 34 mpg. I paid 24K for it, now, compare all the features on that to what it would cost on a Prius and then do the math. I have a 2012 Camry SE that gets 27-28 mpg vs the honest 34-35 that the Camry hybrid gets, and would have cost much more to get the same options - again, do the math.
I don`t hate Prius, I just don`t think they are worth the extra money and the interiors are not appealing to me. I`ve detailed a few.
I think hydrogen fuel cells are the future, not batteries. We`ll see what happens in the next 10 years.

[Junebug]

Down my way, we got some real OG zero emission drivers.... If you want to save the planet, I suggest hooking up with these dudes.

Oh you have got to be kidding, zero emissions my eye - unless that horse is constipated!!