Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

**Lenny** · 11-14-2008, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by dave40co

I say they should file a BK and renegotiate the Union contracts. Hourly cost for an American automaker worker is $70 but for foreign automakers it is $40. The unions have priced them selfs out. I know how it works since I was a union worker for UAL when it went under. I also believe the upper management should take HUGE cuts.

Toyota, Honda & Nissan hourly costs are more like $48 to $49 an hour, and should the three Detroit automakers make it to 2010, their costs drop to very close to that, around $51 an, due to major changes in the union contract just negotiated this past September and October, 2007. One report even claimed that GM would actually have a $200 a car advantage over Toyota in 2010.

Mercedes and BMW are at the same level as Toyota and company. Only Hyundai is at $40 an hour, and they made no bones about it when they announced their USA assembly operations, that those wages were to undercut Toyota`s selling prices.

**2002 Z06** · 11-14-2008, 05:14 PM

Someone on another board stated, "Where`s my bail money?"...I couldn`t agree more.

**Bunky** · 11-14-2008, 05:21 PM

Unless you have a job with the US government, you will likely be affected by the demise of GM or Ford. If you are a detailer, you have not seen anything near the bottom yet. The reprecussions (deserved or not) have yet to hit. There will be no recovery in 2009. Until at all the kung pao has hit the fan, it is not likely going up.

**Setec Astronomy** · 11-14-2008, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Spilchy

Why on Earth would we give billions to the exact same people that screwed it up to begin with? The bozo that heads Chrysler received a $200 million golden parachute when he was FIRED from Home Depot. He was a schmuck to begin with.

One of the posters in this thread has been out of work for 14 months, probably thru no fault of his own, but a guy who got FIRED gets $200 million. Your assessment of "why give it to the people who screwed it up" fits pretty well with letting Paulson and Bernanke run the bailout when they were the ones in charge when it blew up.

**soccerjunky** · 11-14-2008, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Inzane

Do you work for General Motors?

I will admit that the new Malibu and CTS have made great strides at becoming very competitive in their classes. Those are but two examples in GM passenger cars that stand out from a sea of mediocrity.

But the Pontiac G6... they are crap.

I can`t say I know anyone who "admires" the Chevrolet brand. WHO around the world admires them? :think: (Other than within the Corvette niche? Corvettes are special in their own way and don`t deserve to be lumped in with the rest of Chevy most of the time.)

**Bunky** · 11-14-2008, 05:46 PM

This is crazy. Chrysler (Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge) leads the group as a pack?

**Setec Astronomy** · 11-14-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Bunky

This is crazy. Chrysler (Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge) leads the group as a pack?

No, they are at the bottom. The top is the best (least defects). Interestingly, all GM divs are above average (well the traditional car ones, GMC and Saturn are worse), and the Ford divs are better than GM.

**Lenny** · 11-14-2008, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

No, they are at the bottom. The top is the best (least defects). Interestingly, all GM divs are above average (well the traditional car ones, GMC and Saturn are worse), and the Ford divs are better than GM.

And Ford is right behind Toyota, and Honda (Mercury is slightly ahead of Honda) and all Ford division is ahead of Acura.

Most of GM is ahead of Acura.

**Bunky** · 11-14-2008, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

No, they are at the bottom. The top is the best (least defects). Interestingly, all GM divs are above average (well the traditional car ones, GMC and Saturn are worse), and the Ford divs are better than GM.

It was crazy. Whew....down they go....

**Lenny** · 11-14-2008, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

One of the posters in this thread has been out of work for 14 months, probably thru no fault of his own, but a guy who got FIRED gets $200 million. Your assessment of "why give it to the people who screwed it up" fits pretty well with letting Paulson and Bernanke run the bailout when they were the ones in charge when it blew up.

Yep. Out for 14 months, and I didn`t get fired. My company got bought out, and the new owner brought in his own management team. openings were skimpy to begin with, when I got laid off in September, 2007, but after the price of gas started to really spike upward, earlier this year, the openings really dried up. And since then, I`m hearing from the few people I have interviewed with, the employers are really getting picky on filling the openings. I`ve seen the same company run the same job posting in Careerbuilder and Monster three or four times, or more. One company I know ran the same help wanted ad eight times since last September.

Bob Nardelli, who ran Home Depot (almost into the ground), would not have been my choice to run Chrysler, but somehow he recruited Jim Press away from Toyota.

**Setec Astronomy** · 11-14-2008, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Len_A

Bob Nardelli, who ran Home Depot (almost into the ground), would not have been my choice to run Chrysler, but somehow he recruited Jim Press away from Toyota.

Isn`t he the guy who bailed out of GE when he didn`t get Jack Welch`s job? I dunno, but if I`m a retail giant the guy I`m looking for to run my company (into the ground) is a guy who`s spent his whole career building locomotives, power plants, jet engines, motors and washing machines.

**Lenny** · 11-14-2008, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

Isn`t he the guy who bailed out of GE when he didn`t get Jack Welch`s job? I dunno, but if I`m a retail giant the guy I`m looking for to run my company (into the ground) is a guy who`s spent his whole career building locomotives, power plants, jet engines, motors and washing machines.

Yea, he was at GE, and he bailed out on them when he didn`t get promoted. He really did a number on Home Depot. A lot of internal turmoil. Until housing begins to crash and hurt all the home improvement stores, Lowe`s was really eating Home Depot`s lunch. Nardelli`s policies really damaged customer service.

**Lenny** · 11-14-2008, 07:44 PM

From: My Way News - Bush wants $25B in loans released to carmakers

Bush wants $25B in loans released to carmakers

WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House is throwing support behind a plan to speed release of $25 billion in loans to troubled automakers but is rejecting a Democratic proposal to use money from a financial bailout for car companies. Spokeswoman Dana Perino says the Democratic proposal would lead to partisan gridlock because the $700 billion rescue package was never intended to help automakers and shouldn`t be now. For that reason, she told The Associated Press that the White House is now actively asking Congress to accelerate loans it first approved in September.

Those loans were meant to help automakers build more fuel-efficient vehicles. The administration now supports allowing it to be used for more urgent purposes as the companies struggle to stay afloat.

**Lenny** · 11-14-2008, 08:04 PM

European Union might complain to the World Trade Organisation about U.S. plans to help its stricken car industry

"We are in the process of analysing the plan. The plan has not yet been presented yet. Of course, if it is illegal state aid, we will act at a WTO level," Barroso told Europe 1 radio.

**soccerjunky** · 11-14-2008, 08:19 PM

the the big 3 make hundreds of thousands of cars in a year for the MASSES. They are not a boutique manufacturer like the BMW`s, MB, Porsche, Audi`s, Vdub, infiniti, lexus type manufacturers who make tens of thousands of cars that are marketed to a higher income bracket. In order to make those cars affordable to the masses, the big 3 can`t load them up with top grain leathers, and have 1micrometer gaps in body panels, etc etc etc. (however, GM does make a lot of innovations that beat the boutiques to market: MSRC, heads up display, PDC, onstar to name a few). If they did, the average american wouldn`t be able to afford them, it`s a simple concept.

Also, the US economy is heavily reliant on the big 3, 1 in 8 US jobs is in some way related to the automotive industry. It`s everyone`s right to be critical, but to be undeservedly critical of a US manufacturer that has come a long way in the last 10 years and is part of the foundation of the US economy is absolutely short sighted and ignorant.

Do I buy American exclusively ? Nope, I`m a car guy, every car has it`s pros and cons for different lifestyles, but I won`t completely disregard US brands because of historical stereotypes that no longer hold true for many models