Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[jfelbab]

Grim news tonight. Looks like the bailout deal fell apart, at east for the time being. Not a lot of time left before the congress closes down for the holidays.



WASHINGTON – A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers has collapsed in the Senate after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he was "terribly disappointed" about the demise of an emerging bipartisan deal to rescue Detroit`s Big Three.



Source: Auto bailout talks collapse over union wages - Yahoo! News

[Mortil]

I agree that the economy globally is looking somewhat dismal. Layoffs and cutbacks everywhere you turn. No hope for a bailout for most of those workers. The unemployed gets the headlines, but there are many more under-employed people and they rarely get even a mention.







I`m struggling with that thought now. Even more than I, the Wife l-o-v-e-s that car.



BTW, you English looks pretty darned good to me. :xyxthumbs I`ve read (or tried to) posts from people who claim English as their primary language who don`t do that well.

thanx dont know what the 850 is in pricing over there. ?

i do have a 850 2.5T standing in my garage at this moment it needs new brakes and a new turbo. it has run soon 350 000 miles . i will be using that for my fun to destroy car now i think.. the car market has made an U turn here. all prices is going doooooooown .



also heard about the Senate decision this morning . not good not good. i hope they think it over AGAIN ..

[Lenny]

Payback can be a b*tch. Former Detroit Tiger and Kentucky Senator Jim Bunning was told to get lost:



Gibraltar Trade Center Michigan Sport Card Show Upcoming Signer



http://www.gibraltartrade.com/press.htm

[Lenny]

My Way News - White House readies new rescue for auto industry

[Lenny]

THE AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT



GM says it rejected bankruptcy after hiring advisers



Automotive News

December 12, 2008 - 12:01 am ET



DETROIT (Reuters) -- General Motors hired outside advisers to weigh bankruptcy, but the board determined that a filing was not an option, a GM spokesman said on Thursday.



"We said all along that the board had considered bankruptcy and had concluded it was not a viable option," GM spokesman Tony Cervone said. "The board continues to meet frequently and to weigh all options and has retained appropriate advisers for all contingencies."



GM is lobbying for a share of a $14 billion auto-rescue package stalled in Congress and has warned it could run short of cash by the end of this month without an emergency federal loan.



GM CEO Rick Wagoner, who also chairs the automaker`s board, has said repeatedly a Chapter 11 filing would result in liquidation because consumers would shun products sold by a company reorganizing under court protection.



The hiring of outside legal and restructuring advisers by GM was reported today by the Wall Street Journal. The newspaper said GM had retained Harvey Miller, a bankruptcy specialist at the New York law firm Weil Gotshal & Manges LP.



The newspaper also said GM retained restructuring advisers, including William Repko of Evercore Partners, Arthur Newman of Blackstone Group and Jay Alix.



GM`s Cervone declined to name the outside firms hired by the company`s board.



Earlier this month, Chrysler LLC confirmed it retained law firm Jones Day as bankruptcy counsel and had engaged other advisers to provide a comprehensive analysis of its options.



Chrysler said it hired Jones Day in response to the congressional hearings in November in which U.S. automakers were asked to study why bankruptcy was not a better alternative for restructuring than the loans requested from the government.



The review determined the impact from a Chrysler bankruptcy would devastate the domestic auto industry, the company said.



The cash crisis is most acute at GM and Chrysler. Rival Ford Motor Co, which has a stronger cash position, has asked U.S. lawmakers for a standby $9 billion line of credit to protect it from a worsening of the U.S. auto market or the failure of GM or Chrysler.

[Lenny]

How Long Can Auto Parts Suppliers Survive?, CBS Evening News: More Riding On The Car Industry Than Just Automakers - CBS News

[Lenny]

Big 3 rescue wins rivals` support | detnews.com | The Detroit News



Big 3 rescue wins rivals` support

Foreign-based carmakers fear backlash collapse of Detroit`s auto industry would have on supply chain.

Christine Tierney / The Detroit News



WASHINGTON -- They may be unrelenting rivals of Detroit`s Big Three, but foreign-based automakers don`t relish the prospect that one or more of Detroit`s automakers might go under.



On the contrary, the risk that one of the U.S. car companies could collapse deeply worries Asian and German manufacturers with U.S. factories.



As the industry`s outlook has deteriorated in recent months, executives at foreign car companies have said they want to see Detroit`s cash-strapped automakers get through the crisis, noting that they all share the same network of suppliers.



"We`re joined at the hip with our Detroit brethren in manufacturing," said Irv Miller, group vice president and chief spokesman at Toyota Motor Corp.`s U.S. sales subsidiary. Whatever the U.S. government proposes to keep the U.S. automakers afloat, "we support it," Miller said.



On Friday the Bush administration signaled that it would extend a financial lifeline to General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC after a bailout bill died Thursday night in the Senate, where it ran into fierce opposition from Republicans. Some of the bill`s most vocal critics, such as Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama and Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee, represent southern states that have successfully courted investment from foreign automakers.



In the past few weeks, as senators from states with foreign transplants have grown more strident in their criticism of Detroit`s top managers and the United Auto Workers union, executives from Japanese and German companies have tried to distance themselves from those sentiments.



Honda executives made it clear last month that they didn`t share the views expressed by Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., who said during the opening of Honda Motor Co.`s new assembly plant in Greensburg, Ind., that he would rather see the U.S. automakers file for bankruptcy than receive taxpayer money.



Jeffrey Smith, assistant vice president for corporate affairs at American Honda, told reporters, "Honda supports measures that would maintain the short- and long-term viability and stability of the auto industry."



Like his colleagues at Toyota, Smith noted that all automakers that have U.S. production facilities are "deeply and closely integrated at the supply base."



Some executives at foreign automakers are being tactful to prevent a resurgence of the kind of protectionism and backlash that flared in the 1970s and 1980s. But those sentiments have subsided, particularly in regions where German automakers BMW AG and Daimler AG`s Mercedes-Benz and the Japanese and Koreans have built factories.



Executives at the Japanese manufacturers have been surprised to hear lawmakers assert that their workers earn far less than workers employed by Detroit`s automakers. One executive who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed UAW President Ron Gettelfinger`s remarks Friday that team members, or line workers, at Toyota`s largest North American assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky., earned more than the average UAW worker.



According to Gettelfinger, a UAW worker earns wages of just over $28 an hour, on average, compared with $30.45 an hour for Georgetown`s non-union workers. That includes profit-sharing bonuses that are likely to decline for the current year.



Wages at Nissan Motor Co. and Honda sites average between $25 and $29 an hour and tend to rise faster than pay at UAW plants.



Including benefits and other compensation, the gap widens, with UAW workers costing $55 an hour on average, compared with an hourly cost of around $45 at the transplants. But concessions made in the last UAW contract in 2007, including lower starting wages for new hires, are expected to close that gap by 2012.



In recent months, foreign automakers and parts suppliers have tried to work out contingency plans in the event of a collapse of one of Detroit`s Big Three. But executives say they would not be able to shield themselves from the impact of an automaker`s collapse because the number of distressed suppliers in North America already is in the hundreds.

[Bunky]

Len, if what you say is true, then the UAW should have agreed to parity (employed and retired). They may have got a pay raise.



How much does each uaw worker pay the union for membership? Is it a percentage of income or flat fee or some combo). They are paying an additional tax that non-union workers do not need to pay,

[Lenny]

Len, if what you say is true, then the UAW should have agreed to parity (employed and retired). They may have got a pay raise.



How much does each uaw worker pay the union for membership? Is it a percentage of income or flat fee or some combo). They are paying an additional tax that non-union workers do not need to pay,

Union dues, the last I heard, were two hours pay a month.



You`re right - they would have got a raise, if an independently and impartially obtained wage information would have been allowed. It was the GOP, in a closed meeting with Tennessee Senator Bob Corker (who, BTW, the UAW praised yesterday) who scuttled this, not the union. It ends up smacking of regional and anti-union politics.

[Mr. Clean]

I get a kick out of the way Car & Driver tend to phrase things.



10 Lies Pinhead Legislators Believe About the Auto Industry - Car News/Latest News

He lost me on this point(less)...

Lie 10: Thomas Friedman can fix everything.



Truth: The New York Times columnist is certainly entertaining, in the same way that Ross Perot as a presidential candidate was entertaining. But do you really want to take him seriously? ...

I don`t read the NY Times, but I found Perot more than just entertaining as a presidential candidate. I still think he would have been a very good single term president. I`m not always a fan of his, but I have to wonder a bit where we might be as a country if we had put him in office.



Here is some news out of the Arlington, TX GM plant. They are going to begin to cut overtime and Saturday shifts at the plant. With all that is going on, why in the world would they be working overtime to build vehicles that are to sit on a dealer`s lot somewhere? Ridiculous, and another reason for my doubts regarding the competency of GM`s executives.



And, I hate to admit it, since these are coming from my home state, but get this...the workers are complaining about overtime cuts. Goodness sakes alive, be grateful that you have a job when so many others are without.

[Lenny]

He lost me on this point(less)...







I don`t read the NY Times, but I found Perot more than just entertaining as a presidential candidate. I still think he would have been a very good single term president. I`m not always a fan of his, but I have to wonder a bit where we might be as a country if we had put him in office.



Here is some news out of the Arlington, TX GM plant. They are going to begin to cut overtime and Saturday shifts at the plant. With all that is going on, why in the world would they be working overtime to build vehicles that are to sit on a dealer`s lot somewhere? Ridiculous, and another reason for my doubts regarding the competency of GM`s executives.



And, I hate to admit it, since these are coming from my home state, but get this...the workers are complaining about overtime cuts. Goodness sakes alive, be grateful that you have a job when so many others are without.

They were working overtime because as gas prices came down, pickup sales went back up. Now GM`s demand has dropped as Ford`s new F-150 is taking a bigger chunk of the light truck market - Ford dealers are asking for more inventory to sell.



You`re 100% right - they should be grateful that they`ve still got a job.



I just thought the Car & Drive piece was amusing, that`s all.

[Lenny]

Toyota likely to report loss in second half | Reuters

[BigAl3]

it just a no win situation for everyone. i was just at my local USPS and spoke to the lady and asked if the economy has been effecting them. she said absolutely, instead of her doing her normal routine, they are switching her around to multi-task to do several different jobs and not to mention, she said alot of people are doing things over the net these days as well...

[Eliot Ness]

it just a no win situation for everyone........

You`re sure right about that! It is having an effect in places we don`t even think about too. I was in Nassau on a short 4 day cruise last week and a taxi driver was telling me their main industry is tourism, and the U.S. is the biggest chunk of that and they are feeling the pains of our economic problems. The Atlantis hotel/resort is the islands largest employer of ~ 8,000 jobs and they just laid off 800. Times are going to be tough for a while longer almost everywhere.

[Lenny]

Why Asian automakers want a federal bailout of U.S. industry - Dec. 15, 2008