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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by wfedwar
    I don`t see where either side has any proof that layering does or does not happen. I also don`t see why the "burden of proof" is on either side. Why do so many people state thier opinions and guesses as fact?


    Same here. Two thin layers to ensure full coverage works fine for me. Plus, I have other stuff I`d rather do than endlessly layer sealants or top them with carnaubas. Like Mike Phillips says "find something you like and use it often".
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  2. #62

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    Are waxes or sealants neccessary? Well, that can`t simply be answered with a yes or no.



    The average car owner could probably not wax their car for several years, and not notice any significant detereoration. But of course, the average car owner is oblivious to things like swirls, bird etching, environmental fallout, and other things. As long as the clear coat hasn`t failed, or the paint oxidized, all is good in most car owners` eyes.



    I don`t know what the current average length of ownership is, but I have to believe just about every modern vehicle`s paint could at least survive that long, without a "failure", without the use of any wax or sealant (excluding being subjected to a lot of acid rain, or something out of the ordinary).
    Ridding the world of swirls, one car at a time!

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by weekendwarrior
    Are waxes or sealants neccessary? Well, that can`t simply be answered with a yes or no.



    The average car owner could probably not wax their car for several years, and not notice any significant detereoration..I have to believe just about every modern vehicle`s paint could at least survive that long, without a "failure", without the use of any wax or sealant (excluding being subjected to a lot of acid rain, or something out of the ordinary).


    I`ve obtained a few "never waxed" used vehicles with b/c paint (most recently my Yukon). Other than etching from acid rain/birds/etc. they`ve been in remarkably good condition. VERY different from single stage cars that were treated that way.



    Just my experience with *those* vehicles though...

  4. #64
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuttGrunt



    Waxing will provide such a thin layer that given a short amount of time acid rain, bird poo, any APC/degreaser/soap will eat through this valued "protection" which I think is exactly the OP`s point. With such a small amount of weak protection - can you actually say it`s doing much to help?




    Quote Originally Posted by longdx
    Waxes/sealants provide a barrier, albeit temporary one to stem the onslaught of these contaminants.


    Quote Originally Posted by citizen arcane

    Yup, this is exactly why I put sealants on my vehicles. That and the perceived notion that a sealant/wax will give a sacrificial layer to bird bombs, industrial fall out and bug etchings when dealt w/ promptly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwax

    I think if you live in an area with acid rain, industrial fallout, etc you`d be nuts not to have a wax or sealant acting as an additional barrier to protect the paint. Clearcoats are still paint and will benefit from additional protection.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoudyL

    Are they eliminating acids from rain, birds and insects from etching into the clearcoat?



    Yes, because any water soluble corrosive elements, must first pass/diffuse through a hydrophobic layer of wax/polymers/amino-silicones to reach the surface.






    After fully prepping this brand new 09 ZR-1, I topped it with 3 coats of LSP(Z5/Z2). A few months later the owner pulls it out of storage, drives it a few 100 miles and washes it 2 times (the car has never been through any elements, just dust). The morning that I was scheduled to wash/re-sealed it, a bird crapped on the hood/fender. He proceeded to drive the vehicle to work (which is where I was going to do the work) and pulled it into his indoor storage garage. This crap sat on the surface for no more than ~4 hours (if that), out of sunlight in a climate controlled garage. The owner showed me the spots, so I rinsed and then hand washed it and was disgusted to find that there was significant etching in the clear. At 1st I was hoping that because the water was beading so well that this was a sign of protection, but unfortunately, I was wrong.



    I think we`ve ended up no further than before I asked these questions. I`m not convinced that LSP is worth oohing and ahhing about when they do no more than leave a thin film of oil (or whatever) on the surface. This really does no more than aide in washing and gives us the perceived notion that because the water is beading, there`s something on the surface that is preserving it. If that gives people enough "value" to spend countless hours applying and arguing about how great these products are over another, then I feel detailers are being brainwashed.



















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  5. #65

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    Take the poop out of the equation and it looks great. David, in your opinion would a nuba topping have stopped the etching?

  6. #66
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Hard to say, but I don`t think so.
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  7. #67

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    I think it was superbee or accumulator, can`t remember off the top of my head that believed zaino offered very little in terms of enviromental protection. Long lasting, yes, but no actual "protection".



    in my own experience, tuesday of last week a bird pooped on my hood . Its been about 70 degress the past week. I didn`t get to wash my car until saturday evening. The car sits outside all day. I have maybe 3 coats of upgp on it. ONR took it off with ease, almost no aggitation. I was expecting there to be some kind of etching, but I could find any. This was under halogens and a led light.



    On the other hand, I use OCW on my headlights since it boasts UV protection. A bird pooped on one. Maybe 4 hours went by until I could hit with some QD. Low and behold, there was etching.



    Granted there are a lot of variables here, plastic isn`t the same as CC, the amount of acid in each birds gut those days could have been on opposite sides of the spectrum, I think some products offer more enviromental protection than others. Put it this way though, we might not know 100% if they protect, but does it to hurt to PUT IT ON? I doubt it. and with wowa sealants that take no more than 10 minutes to apply, it doesn`t take away time either.

    Weight the options here, save 10 minutes not applying something and have the potential of the enviroment harming your paint, or use 10 minutes applying something that could potentially save your paint from damage. I think the choice is easy.

  8. #68

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    I am really surprised that with all the technology about these days, that is relatively cheap and easy to access by a manufacturer, that nobody has yet demonstrated any significant film build by a conventional LSP, and of course more by layering it. Imagine the argument to use more product by adding layer after layer IF you could prove it actually did build a thicker layer of LSP... Like the old shampoo marketing trick "...rinse and repeat..."



    The total lack of evidence leads me think that its been tried and results demonstrated nothing, so we have never seen them....



    I just wax/seal for shine and ease of cleaning primarily.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Fermani
    At 1st I was hoping that because the water was beading so well that this was a sign of protection, but unfortunately, I was wrong.




    Unfortunately, durability and protection don`t always go hand in hand. In my experience, carnaubas and the WOWO sealants (UPGP, OS and Z-CS) seem to offer more protection than any of the sealants I have tried. Carnaubas seem to make sense in that they probably lay down a thicker barrier but the protection offered by the WOWO sealants really suprised me.
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsoto87
    I think it was superbee or accumulator, can`t remember off the top of my head that believed zaino offered very little in terms of enviromental protection. Long lasting, yes, but no actual "protection".


    Had that car been protected with a real wax, (e.g properly applied Turtle Wax Ice) the bird poop would have ricochet`d off the car and possibly killed the bird as well.



    More seriously, there are a number of variables in play (e.g what the bird ate, how old the LSP layer was etc), and it would silly to generalise off one incident and especially one product (e.g Zaino), and certainly in the boutique part of the market.



    It cannot be disputed that constant polishing will thin the paint, and so it must be inferior to non-abrasive approaches if we use residual paint life as our metric and assume that thinner paint will fail sooner.



    What is really unclear to me is all this emhpasis on layering. If you really want your paint to become encrusted with wax, don`t buff it off.



    The process of buffing off the wax removes all but the thinest layer of LSP that is bonding to the paint. A wax that has a very strong wax-wax interaction, vs a strong wax-paint interaction will be streaky and very hard to remove.

  11. #71

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    So far the cars that have never been sealed or waxed, don`t really get bad water spots, but cars that have always been waxed and sealed, get water spots pretty quickly and they are bad. Besides adding gloss or whatever, i really don`t think an LSp does a whole lot, except keep the clear slick for when you get around to washing it again.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by RZJZA80
    So far the cars that have never been sealed or waxed, don`t really get bad water spots, but cars that have always been waxed and sealed, get water spots pretty quickly and they are bad. Besides adding gloss or whatever, i really don`t think an LSp does a whole lot, except keep the clear slick for when you get around to washing it again.


    I just did an Escalade today that obviously had no protection on the paint (no slickness at all, very loose beading) and it definitely had water spots. Not the nice tight round ones a well protected car would have but really ugly, odd shaped beads.



    Nothing will protect the paint against sprinkler water if you allow it to dry on the paint. I always recommend to my customers that they absolutely never park near grassy areas-minimum of 25 feet to help prevent water spots.
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  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoudyL
    Had that car been protected with a real wax, (e.g properly applied Turtle Wax Ice)


    what makes TW such a real wax and zaino not a real wax?



    How many other "waxes" besides TW Ice have you used?

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by RZJZA80
    i really don`t think an LSp does a whole lot, except keep the clear slick for when you get around to washing it again.


    If LSP`s only did that and nothing else, it would be a good thing since the friction during washing is an excellent way to marr up the paint.

  15. #75

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    Which sealant is ez use and to remove and great gloss?

 

 
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