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  1. #31
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    Originally posted by killrwheels

    By layering, I mean the ability to put on an additional layer that benefits or enhances the previous layer, without removing the first layer THROUGH THE CHEMICALS/ ABRASIVES CONTAINED WITHIN SAID PRODUCT.



    Klasse SG, Zaino Z2 .... are products that come to mind. Maybe Wolfgang and even Menzerna FMJ , time will tell.


    Thank you for defining the word layer, layering and layerable for me.



    Let me see If I completely understand,



    Layer, Layering, Layerable



    The ability to put on an additional layer that benefits or enhances the previous layer, without removing the first layer through the chemicals, or abrasives contained within a said product.


    Now, if you don’t mind, I would like to wait and see if Steve would like to add his 2 cents on the subject.



    I would also appreciate everyone who has ever had an opinion on what the word Layer, Layering, and Layerable, means, to please chime in and lets all get on the same page.



    And… can we please keep it nice? No name calling, or twisting of words. Lets just discuss this like Autopians and civil human beings. And when were done, perhaps we can all agree on the definition of the word Layer, and products that can actually be layered.



    Then, we can discuss if this is actually a good thing.



    Mike

  2. #32

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    Me evasive? :nixweiss Since when? MIke [/B]


    Your right, you just plain wont answer the simple question. Is NXT layerable or is it being removed with each additional coat, due to is specialized abrasives ?? Does Spray Wax do what Tech Wax cannot, because it may not have the same specialized cleaners ?? Its an honest question with no hidden agenda. I suspect, and others on this very board have stated that it is NOT LAYERABLE.



    Like it or not, I still have a bottle to use and the wifes car is a testing bed moving forward. (Its only seen Klasse AIO, SG since new) . Although if you will test my bottle (maybe its contaminated, or a bad batch) and promise to send me a refund/ replacement , I will forward it to you. Maybe you can get me some wash so I can try that also .... I promise I wont use it on the toolbox any longer !

    :shocked

  3. #33

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    Yeah!



    (Mosca settles in front of the screen with his popcorn)

  4. #34
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    LOL! :xyxthumbs



    Thanks for adding some levity to the thread Tom.



    I love a good discussion as well as anyone, but there is no need for name calling or twisting words.



    Now... how about sharing that popcorn!



    Mike

  5. #35

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    I shouldn`t have to provide my definition of layering, as I`m not the one who asked or has to answer the question. I`m simply a bystander in this tiff - but it seems to me that if you (Mike) have indicated in the past that the product can be layered, you should know the definition of layering, right?



    My beef comes from the wild claims on the packaging about "Xtreme, synthetic polymer protection," and "Eliminates fine scratches and swirls," (yet previously was said to contain "No abrasives" - but that`s since been amended). I`ve only gotten a few weeks from it, as have others... I know some have gotten "months" of protection, so you`re right - everyone`s results may vary.



    Spin? That`s a tough one to answer, and probably best saved for a whole other show...

  6. #36

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    I`m wit` geek on this one, not the post right above but the one about prep. I think that a car looks its absolute best right BEFORE applying the final coat, and that the best final coat is not the one that IMPROVES the finish the MOST, but the one that DEGRADES it the LEAST.



    I`ll add another question, though; why would one WANT a product to layer? And, why WOULDN`t one want a product to layer? I think that that will help to define the argument a little bit better, because what I really think is that there is a difference in manufacturer`s beliefs as to whether it`s better to contain cleaners, or better to not contain cleaners.





    Tom

  7. #37

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    Originally posted by Mike Phillips

    Well I think the issue is who`s definition of layering do you want to use. So instead of guessing what he meant, I thought it would help if he would post his definition. Is that fair?


    Fair enough!



    Originally posted by Mike Phillips

    That`s my goal, and I hope my history of answering questions here and on other forums. You have read many of my posts here on Autopia, would you say I have a history of spinning answers? Seriously?



    How about anyone else? Is there any Autopian that thinks I spin answers? I write long answers, but that’s because in most cases, I’m doing my best to answer questions thoroughly and completely. I know I get e-mails and PM’s from people all the time thanking me for answering questions and explaining products and procedures on Autopia and elsewhere.



    I know I read posts from other people that don`t live up to those high standards, but as for me, I sincerely and honestly try my best to answer questions without spin or playing around with definitions. If nothing else, Bill Clinton taught us that words mean things, remember when he asked what the definition of the word "is"... is?


    Seriously?? eh, well, you and I haven`t had the best of histories here so maybe I shouldn`t get into that.....BUT..you`re definitely not Bill Clinton! That would be the ultimate blow! Hehe. Maybe "spin" was too strong of a word and I certainly didn`t want you to feel the need to defend yourself, but if sorta felt as if you were skirting the issue. But I appreciate your explanation above and it`s much clearer to me now. Yes, you write long answers but that`s cuz you have a lot to share and for the most part, I do appreciate your knowledge.



    Originally posted by Mike Phillips

    By the way Intermezzo, did you see over on CorvetteForum I invited you to the North County Corvette Club Detail Day at Meguiar`s on April 3rd?



    I too respect DavidB’s opinion and he is the one that first told me about Klasse SG actually forming a real layer.



    Mike


    Absolutely! I saw it...and thank you very much for inviting me. I responded earlier today to your invite that I think I might very well take you up on your offer. I appreciate it very much. (Nothing like the casual acceptance of a polite invitation, eh? j/k)



    Yes, David`s been an advocate of the layering properties of KSG, but according to some side by side tests he`s posted here in the past, he`s also a believer in the layering ability of Zaino. In any event, your test was very interesting.

  8. #38

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    Here, I`ll try to answer. Mike gave you his opinion (along with some public tongue-lashing), and I`ll give you mine.



    NXT doesn`t layer.

    The abrasives in NXT will remove anything under it.

    There are products that do layer.

    The End.



    Okay, I`m off to the pool to swim...

  9. #39

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    I layer a product primarily to improve the standard deviation and to ensure total coverage. If I happen to be using a product that is capable of cross-linking, I believe additional layers can assist with protection, because as I understand it, certain protectants apply as if they were a piece of "chain link fence." (Obviously that`s an extreme example, but it`s the first one that came to mind)



    By increasing layers, I might be able minimize the "gaps" in the chain link fence (so to speak, and again, this is only specific to some products), which improves deviation which improves appearance, and hopefully improves durability.



    Hack, slice and respond at will.

  10. #40

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    layering: IMHO, does the surface look better and last longer after additional application! I dont care if the solvent in the product removes or cleans some of the first because that is a different question (cleaning). Some products may look better and last longer after multiple application. Have many different application per product is a different question. If it looks better and last longer after an additional application then it did something.

  11. #41
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    Originally posted by geekysteve

    I layer a product primarily to improve the standard deviation and to ensure total coverage. If I happen to be using a product that is capable of cross-linking, I believe additional layers can assist with protection, because as I understand it, certain protectants apply as if they were a piece of "chain link fence." (Obviously that`s an extreme example, but it`s the first one that came to mind)



    By increasing layers, I might be able minimize the "gaps" in the chain link fence (so to speak, and again, this is only specific to some products), which improves deviation which improves appearance, and hopefully improves durability.



    Hack, slice and respond at will.


    That is a pretty good summary of what you consider layering to mean. When you say "by increasing layers", just to be sure on my end, do you mean increasing thickness? As in the thickness of the layer? And if so, to what degree?



    Do you believe that the more layers you add, the thicker the layer becomes? Without end?



    Or... is there a limit?



    Mike

  12. #42

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    Do you answer all questions with a question?

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by killrwheels

    Your right, you just plain wont answer the simple question.


    Have you ever watched Perry Mason?



    (There, now I`m being evasive, but the question has relevance)





    Is NXT layerable or is it being removed with each additional coat, due to is specialized abrasives ?? Does Spray Wax do what Tech Wax cannot, because it may not have the same specialized cleaners ?? Its an honest question with no hidden agenda. I suspect, and others on this very board have stated that it is NOT LAYERABLE.


    This is a fair question, and a good question, and just because I haven`t answered it yet doesn`t mean I`m evasive. I will answer your question to the best of my ability.



    Like it or not, I still have a bottle to use and the wifes car is a testing bed moving forward. (Its only seen Klasse AIO, SG since new) . Although if you will test my bottle (maybe its contaminated, or a bad batch) and promise to send me a refund/ replacement , I will forward it to you. Maybe you can get me some wash so I can try that also .... I promise I wont use it on the toolbox any longer !

    :shocked


    In true Autopian style... test, test, test...



    In the past I have sent people samples in good faith for them to test and I always say, If you want to, post their honest opinion of the product good or bad.



    (Note I don`t say I expect them to post their opinion, but only if they are so inclinded),



    I`m sure some Autopian that I have sent a sample to in the past would be willing to verify that is what I say in my e-mail.



    Mike

  14. #44

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    That is a pretty good summary of what you consider layering to mean. When you say "by increasing layers", just to be sure on my end, do you mean increasing thickness? As in the thickness of the layer? And if so, to what degree?


    Boy do I wish you could just answer a simple question. As an attorney once said, just answer the question. It really is as easy as yes or no.



    Lets get this question answered so we can move onto durability. I really wanna disect this one also.

  15. #45
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    Originally posted by geekysteve

    Do you answer all questions with a question?


    Oh come on Steve, you know that`s not my style.



    This one time, I want to have everyone`s input, I want to see what everyone`s opinion of the word layering means.



    That`s all.



    It`s not a game, it`s a discussion. Search all my posts, when do I ever answer all questions with questions?



    Mike

 

 
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