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  1. #16
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    And your entitled to your opinion,



    But I have had the exact opposite results with all the metallic finishes I have applied Tech Wax to.



    My results are a clear finish, and thus easy to see metal flake.



    But it`s okay if you get different results.



    Mike

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by TortoiseAWD

    Wow. Cliffs Notes, anyone?


    Sorry about that, killerwheels needed some answers.



    So based on your statement that "A product either makes the clear coat clear, or it doesn`t."


    I will stand by the above statement. If you were to separate the clear layer of paint from the finish, as though you were working on a sheet of glass suspended in the air, only in this case the glass is the layer of clear, then a product will either make the clear coat clear, or it will dull it down. In some cases it will leave it the same. But the product your using doesn`t care what`s under the clear layer of paint.



    I would respond, "NXT doesn`t." Either my results are atypical, or NXT increases depth at the expense of clarity. From reading some other reviews, I don`t think I`m alone in that opinion.



    Tort


    And that`s the beauty of different products to choose from. Everyone has an opinion as to what looks good in their eyes.



    Products like NXT Tech Wax, Gold Class, #26 Hi Tech Yellow Wax, Deep Crystal Step 3 Carnauba Wax, #7 Show Car Glaze, #3 Machine Glaze, #81 Hand Polish, etc, either maintain the clarity of a clear coat, or increase the clarity of the clear coat depending on the state of the clear coat before application.



    The above is from my own personal hands on experience after years of detailing cars, many of which are dark or black and clear coated. Like you say, your results may be atypical, because I`m not seeing your results, and neither are any of the attendees to the classes I teach on Sateruday. In fact, without exception, it is always easier to see the metal flakes under the clear after application of Tech Wax than it was before. I`m sure, your sure of your results, but they are not what I am seeing, over and over again.



    If a product makes a clear coat clear, how can it mute anything under it? That`s like saying it makes the clear layer of paint clear, but it clouds the metal flake particles? I guess I`m just not understanding how a product can do two opposite things at the same time? But I’m trying to understand, can you post some further explanation?



    Mike

  3. #18

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    Originally posted by Mike Phillips

    I will stand by the above statement. If you were to separate the clear layer of paint from the finish, as though you were working on a sheet of glass suspended in the air, only in this case the glass is the layer of clear, then a product will either make the clear coat clear, or it will dull it down. In some cases it will leave it the same. But the product your using doesn`t care what`s under the clear layer of paint.


    I would agree with that if the clear were indeed separated from the base coat, but to say that what`s under it doesn`t matter seems a bit off base as well. Are you saying that all paint looks the same? Or that all paint reflects and refracts light in the same way?



    From my experience, different colors respond differently to different lighting conditions, but all respond well to a surface that`s as smooth and polished as possible - that`s when they look their deepest and their most reflective. Why? Because the light reflects better from a surface that`s been finished nicely (i.e., it`s free of peaks and valleys).





    Like you say, your results may be atypical, because I`m not seeing your results, and neither are any of the attendees to the classes I teach on Sateruday. In fact, without exception, it is always easier to see the metal flakes under the clear after application of Tech Wax than it was before.


    Again, a lot of this comes down to what we`ve all been preaching for some time now - preparation is the key to any good detailing job. I know you`re great with the buffer(s) and you have a great talent for properly prepping cars. But, in my opinion, you could put some antique Simoniz over the cars you prep and they`d still look great. Which, has been my underlying point from just about day 1 - it might not be the NXT specifically that`s giving all of the Meguiar`s attendees great results, but rather the prep work that goes into it.



    From what I`ve read, people who apply NXT "by itself" aren`t always getting the same great results, and then they`re blasted (not by anyone specifically) for not properly preparing the surface. But it`s a double-edged sword... a properly prepped surface will look great with just about anything on top of it, so then it boils down to optical clarity and durability, which is a completely different apple.

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by geekysteve

    I would agree with that if the clear were indeed separated from the base coat, but to say that what`s under it doesn`t matter seems a bit off base as well. Are you saying that all paint looks the same? Or that all paint reflects and refracts light in the same way?


    Hi Steve,



    All I`m saying is any paint with a clear coat will look it`s best if the clear coat is as clear as it can be. If the clear coat is as clear as it can be, then how a paint looks is all up to the basecoat because the clear coat isn`t clouding you eyes view of the color or the metal flake.



    If your clear coat is 100% clear, then it would seem that there is nothing muting, or hazing, or dulling your eye`s view of the basecoat underneath.



    If the clear coat is 90% clear and 10% dull, muted, or hazy, or even plasticy, then your view of the base coat underneath will be affected accordingly.



    Isn`t that the goal of polishing paint, (the prep work), to produce the most clear surface possible by removing all scratches, swirls, contaminants, stains etc. so the true color and in the case of a metal flake finish, can shine through?



    Where is my logic wrong?



    Mike

  5. #20
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    Maybe we should start a new thread for this topic because it`s kind of been hijacked from the original posters questions.



    It`s not really fair to him.



    Mike

  6. #21

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    Originally posted by Mike Phillips

    Sorry about that, killerwheels needed some answers.
    Mmmm, yeah. Some answers, or a public tongue-lashing?
    I will stand by the above statement. If you were to separate the clear layer of paint from the finish, as though you were working on a sheet of glass suspended in the air, only in this case the glass is the layer of clear, then a product will either make the clear coat clear, or it will dull it down. In some cases it will leave it the same. But the product your using doesn`t care what`s under the clear layer of paint.
    I don`t disagree. I`ll be blunt: to my eyes, NXT made my clear coat less clear. IMO, the apparent "warmth" of NXT is at the expense of clarity. I feel NXT provides an illusion of more depth by darkening, tinting, making-less-clear (pick your verb) the clearcoat. Again, this isn`t bad on dark non-metallics, it`s even desireable, but it muted the "pop" from the flake on my car. I noticed a similar effect on a Laguna Blue Miata that I did last week. Three month old paint, garaged since it was re-shot. Prior to NXT, it was Laguna Blue, and had a lot of "pop" in the flake. Post NXT, it was a touch darker than the pre-NXT blue, and less flake was visible. The owner even commented on that, as the metallic in that paint is the reason he likes it so much, so I removed the NXT and tried a different product (1Z) that yielded a more pleasing look (to his eyes).



    Tort

  7. #22

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    Rather than steer this entirely off course and beat a (now famously and well-dead) dead horse, I`d like to hear the answer to killrwheels original question (the one that spawned the novel-length responses) -



    How do these specialized and "fine" abrasives effect the layering ability of NXT?

  8. #23

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    Originally posted by geekysteve

    Rather than steer this entirely off course and beat a (now famously and well-dead) dead horse, I`d like to hear the answer to killrwheels original question (the one that spawned the novel-length responses) -



    How do these specialized and "fine" abrasives effect the layering ability of NXT?


    Funny that`s all I want answered and still dont have it. Is Mequires claim of layerability "flawed" or not. And does the Spray Wax contain the same " abrasives, specialized or not "



    or a public tongue-lashing?


    I clearly have gotten under your skin, Mike. I believe that everyone deserves the best products from the best customer service. I have been a supporter and advocate. When I first started discussing Pinnacle Soveran, nobody used it. Since then, over half the board has used and continues to use it. Autogeek has been a vendor that gives us a forum discount, and I share it with new and old alike. (I work in the Financial Industry, not car care in case you thought I was biased) Everyone deserves a benefit when/if available !



    I expect you to like NXT (they pay your salary correct, and I am sure you own co. stock thus your retirement and investments hinge on your products ) and I am glad some others enjoy it. It does better with darker cars, dont know why and dont care. Single stage, dual stage, clearcoat .... blah ... blah .... blah On silver it did not bring out the reflectivity that is typically associated with sealants, but made the car appear white from angles. (I live in Fl where sun is present 90% of the time) . Sorry, it did not work as I anticipated nor as Mequires suggested.



    I like the fact that you stand your ground, and that you clearly do your homework. But you are skating the questions at hand . I am asking for you to clearly let me know if I am wrong (as well as some others) in that your layerability claim is incorrect. And could the missing piece be that Spray Wax is both intended, and the only way to layer the NXT product ??



    I like your boat, and I like you even if you drive a Chevette. My Corvette doesnt make me a better person !



    PS. Might wanna watch the comments about your age, we all know the older we get, the more stubborn we are to change.

    :wavey I still like you and your work ethics, but I dont like NXT, sorry !!

  9. #24
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    Originally posted by killrwheels

    Funny that`s all I want answered and still dont have it. Is Mequires claim of layerability "flawed" or not. And does the Spray Wax contain the same " abrasives, specialized or not "


    Originally posted by Mike Phillips

    And, what is your definition of "Layering", and can you list some products that you believe layer according to your definition of the word?



    I just want to make sure were talking the same language.



    Mike








    I clearly have gotten under your skin, Mike.


    Not even, I just wanted to make sure everyone understood where you were coming from.



    Mike

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by geekysteve

    How do these specialized and "fine" abrasives effect the layering ability of NXT?


    Post your definition of "Layering"



    And then post your list of product you believe can layser, or beter yet... post your list of products you believe can layer and you can prove in fact do layer.



    That shouldn`t be too hard cosidering how long you have been posting about this subject.



    Mike

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by killrwheels

    PS.



    Might wanna watch the comments about your age, we all know the older we get, the more stubborn we are to change.


    The one thing I learned from calling on detail shops/detailers was to alwasy have an open mind. That`s why I purschase the products talked about here and test them for myself. I know when people post comments about products they have never tried themselves, they are often ridculed.



    Heck, if anything, I more open to new ideas than ever.



    Mike

  12. #27

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    Post your definition of "Layering"


    By layering, I mean the ability to put on an additional layer that benefits or enhances the previous layer, without removing the first layer THROUGH THE CHEMICALS/ ABRASIVES CONTAINED WITHIN SAID PRODUCT.



    Klasse SG, Zaino Z2 .... are products that come to mind. Maybe Wolfgang and even Menzerna FMJ , time will tell.



    I know when people post comments about products they have never tried themselves, they are often ridculed.


    Would a picture of both bottles (Spray and Tech Wax) along with todays newspaper help you. Also email Jason over at autogeek, I will allow him to send you a copy of my invoice. Calling me a liar, only be-littles you IMHO. And I dont feel ridiculed , but I find you very evasive and that usually means you have something to hide ! My guess is that you will now downplay my list of products as layerable, when all I want to know is about your holy grail NXT. :nixweiss

  13. #28

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    Originally posted by Mike Phillips

    Post your definition of "Layering"



    And then post your list of product you believe can layser, or beter yet... post your list of products you believe can layer and you can prove in fact do layer.


    Mike, no flames intended, but since killerwheels is asking about the layering comments written on the NXT bottle, don`t you think it`s fair to just give your honest interpretation of what that means without him having to give you his official definition of layering?



    Above all else, I think Autopians appreciate sincere, honest answers as opposed to any spin or play with definitions or words.



    I believe Zaino and Klasse SG layer pretty well. As for proof, that would be difficult, but in my experience, 3 "layers" of Zaino will last almost twice as long as a single coat of Z. I know that doesn`t prove anything and I can sing all day long about how the three layers shined better than the single layer, but that still wouldn`t be proof. However, what works for me works for me and the durability spread was compelling enough....at least for me. That combined with a basic understanding of how these two products work leads me to *believe* they layer relatively effectively. Furthermore, DavidB is a person who`s advice I highly respect and he`s also been a strong advocate of the layering ability of certain paint sealants.

  14. #29
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    Originally posted by Intermezzo

    Mike, no flames intended, but since killerwheels is asking about the layering comments written on the NXT bottle, don`t you think it`s fair to just give your honest interpretation of what that means without him having to give you his official definition of layering?


    Well I think the issue is who`s definition of layering do you want to use. So instead of guessing what he meant, I thought it would help if he would post his definition. Is that fair?



    Above all else, I think Autopians appreciate sincere, honest answers as opposed to any spin or play with definitions or words.


    That`s my goal, and I hope my history of answering questions here and on other forums. You have read many of my posts here on Autopia, would you say I have a history of spinning answers? Seriously?



    How about anyone else? Is there any Autopian that thinks I spin answers? I write long answers, but that’s because in most cases, I’m doing my best to answer questions thoroughly and completely. I know I get e-mails and PM’s from people all the time thanking me for answering questions and explaining products and procedures on Autopia and elsewhere.



    I know I read posts from other people that don`t live up to those high standards, but as for me, I sincerely and honestly try my best to answer questions without spin or playing around with definitions. If nothing else, Bill Clinton taught us that words mean things, remember when he asked what the definition of the word "is"... is?



    (I think that`s called dancing on the head of a pin)



    I believe Zaino and Klasse SG layer pretty well. As for proof, that would be difficult, but in my experience, 3 "layers" of Zaino will last almost twice as long as a single coat of Z. I know that doesn`t prove anything and I can sing all day long about how the three layers shined better than the single layer, but that still wouldn`t be proof. However, what works for me works for me and the durability spread was compelling enough....at least for me. That combined with a basic understanding of how these two products work leads me to *believe* they layer relatively effectively. Furthermore, DavidB is a person who`s advice I highly respect and he`s also been a strong advocate of the layering ability of certain paint sealants.


    Just for the record, I did some "Layering Testing" lately. Just for fun, I tried the black permanent felt marker test on paint and then I tested 7 waxes, or sealants, or [i]polishes[/b].



    Out of the products I tested, 2 of them did not remove the black felt pen marks. One was Pinnacle, the other was Klasse SG, the others all removed the black felt pen marks including Tech Wax and Zaino Z2.



    Take from that what you will, those were my results.



    Fair and unbiased. All test performed equally.



    I also tried this little test. I poured some Klasse out on a piece of saran wrap and smeared it around to form a nice even layer. I then allowed it to dry for several days. I then peeled it off the saran wrap and inspected it. It was a flexible, solid, film. It was not clear however. So assuming Klasse SG is layerable, which it appears to be, from what I saw with my own two eyes, the layer of class was not clear, it was milky looking. I`m just guessing here but wouldn`t you get the same results if you applied layer after layer of this product on your paint? In other words, your finish should not become more and more clear, but less and less clear. Because it doesn`t star out clear and it doesn`t remain clear after it dries.



    Now were back to how clear does a product make a finish, especially with multiple coats.



    By the way Intermezzo, did you see over on CorvetteForum I invited you to the North County Corvette Club Detail Day at Meguiar`s on April 3rd?



    http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...info&eventid=4



    It is an overfull class, but we can always make room for one more Autopian. You might also consider the Viper Detail Day at Meguiar`s, I`ll be doing a before and after on a black Viper just for the event.



    I too respect DavidB’s opinion and he is the one that first told me about Klasse SG actually forming a real layer.



    Mike

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by killrwheels

    Would a picture of both bottles (Spray and Tech Wax) along with todays newspaper help you. Also email Jason over at autogeek, I will allow him to send you a copy of my invoice. Calling me a liar, only be-littles you IMHO. And I dont feel ridiculed , but I find you very evasive and that usually means you have something to hide ! My guess is that you will now downplay my list of products as layerable, when all I want to know is about your holy grail NXT. :nixweiss




    You know killrwheels, your twisting my words, I never said you didn`t have the products, I assumed you did. All I was doing was saying I don`t ever comment on products I haven`t personally tried.



    Don`t you think your post above went a little overboard?



    Sheesh....



    Me evasive? :nixweiss Since when?



    MIke

 

 
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