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  1. #31

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    Rick Flair loves extractor juice too!
    Bryan Burnworth - Atlanta Car Detailing - Peachstate Detail LLC

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  2. #32

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    I feel like this is a win/lose situation. People say that some threads are too long and don`t show the right stuff and yet others say they are to short and copy/paste from other boards. I guess I missed the memo that had an industry standard to what a post should look like. Then again, like Marc said, when he used his examples, they were the examples of the peoples threads that get the most traffic with the little amount of post.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&D Auto Detail
    I feel the guys who aren`t posting a ton of long C&B`s are the ones doing real well. :noidea:


    Agreed.



    Quote Originally Posted by MachNU
    I feel like this is a win/lose situation. People say that some threads are too long and don`t show the right stuff and yet others say they are to short and copy/paste from other boards. I guess I missed the memo that had an industry standard to what a post should look like. Then again, like Marc said, when he used his examples, they were the examples of the peoples threads that get the most traffic with the little amount of post.


    There`s a fine balance, and your exact frustrations and confusion is the same thing we all feel.



    In reality, there`s a time for long and a time or short write-ups. Sometimes you hit a home run and no one notices. Other times you put out a decent thread and it goes crazy. Long threads are needed as "halo projects" to be able to show people examples of a thorough job you did and how it visually restored a vehicle`s looks. Too many big threads and people get bored. Too many short ones and maybe people think less of you or think you`re not able to make a write-up that would take someone 15 minutes to read.
    Marc Harris from AutoLavish Fine Automobile Care of Michigan

  4. #34

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    the idea of posting on every forum is not bad or boring. There are a TON of forums out there, not everyone belongs to every one of them! So in order to hit your market, you have to post the same thing on multiple forums...plain and simple. Lets say i post up the 458 italia I am doing right now on autopia only...How many Ferrari enthusiasts who want their car done in LA area do you think are lurking on Autopia??? Probably next to none, or slim to none! On the other hand, by posting that 458 on a bunch of other sites as well, same writeup, one might be able to impress the right person with a different make and model. Heck, I posted up a porsche and landed a M3, Aston Martin DBS, and a 1974 bmw 2002 turbo off that C&B on a BMW forum and have a client for life now...



    On another topic, since it comes up on some forums, if every forum started making people pay to post, there would be a LOT less C&B`s going up and that would be the end of some detailing sections altogether on some forums! And another thing along those lines, just because you pay to post up your work to get more work (advertising as stated above), doesnt mean you really know what you are doing. i have corrected numerous cars from "sponsors" in the past and have been contacted multiple times from people asking why their car has "these greyish lines" (holograms) all over and what needs to be done to fix it, and can I fix it for them. People sometimes glob on to the "support the forum sponsors" idea a little too much; do your own homework, it goes beyond just one forum! If someone is well known on multiple forums for doing good work, that to me holds more credit and value than paying and posting on just one forum!



    One thing that I dont like about the C&B`s is the fact that your everyday joe shmo is posting up his otherwise "shotty" work in the same section as the pro`s doing 95% corrections over 20+ hours. If someone has just 15 minutes to check out the C&B`s there needs to be a separator category (like how it was here last year) so that person isnt browsing through work that isnt above and beyond! Looking at a thread with 60-80% correction done isnt all that fun. There are still a ton of scratches and hazy paint, yet the "Detailer" says its good enough, so people comment and say how good it looks, nice job, much better, etc...kinda like just being nice to be nice, not honest. sure its glossy, but that can be done with a one step machine polish, its nothing to "click and BRAG" about, definitely not pro! Yes I know there is volume detailing, and paint correction reconditioning, but there is a huge difference, and by grouping them together, its hard for the uneducated to decipher between the two..."why is jo shmo $150 bucks and Eric is $600 for the same thing?" - truth be told, its far from the same thing!



    Maybe its just the sign of the times???? people are holding on to their money (so to speak) so there is less activity to the detailing sections since people dont want to spend the money on their car??? Could that be a factor over the last couple years? I do remember when C&B`s had 500-1000+ views in two-three days, but now it takes a week to hit that mark UNLESS there are multiple replies...the more replies, the more views, which leads to more replies...is there a correlation there you think?

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by D&D Auto Detail
    I feel the guys who aren`t posting a ton of long C&B`s are the ones doing real well. :noidea:


    I know I have stopped with the C&B`s because quite frankly, I am busier than ever and the last thing I want to do is pump out another C&B at the end of a 10-12 hour day working, not including the hour drive and early wake up. That, and I hardly bring my camera anymore since it adds time to the detail, something that I am already short on at this point in my life...between a heavy work load, scheduling, admin stuff, article writing, write-ups, ordering, etc. along with trying to buy a house, setup another couple businesses, things are just crazy hectic. So unless I want to spend another hour per write up and not live a little bit, I dont do them! If I have an extra few hours in a day to myself, I`ll do one...kinda like the GT3 and the Bentley ones I recently did. Funny thing though, those took me working on them over 4 days each...even though they are relatively short!

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcHarris
    In reality, there`s a time for long and a time or short write-ups. Sometimes you hit a home run and no one notices. Other times you put out a decent thread and it goes crazy. Long threads are needed as "halo projects" to be able to show people examples of a thorough job you did and how it visually restored a vehicle`s looks. Too many big threads and people get bored. Too many short ones and maybe people think less of you or think you`re not able to make a write-up that would take someone 15 minutes to read.


    With circular logic, it still boils down to perception of people. The people with the bigger names will always get more traffic, which in turns elevates their name more. When this happens it takes traffic from the little guys threads, who like you said, may have hit a home run. Then eventually it falls off the page, going unnoticed. It will never change.



    Hell, I will use you and myself as an example. If we both did a high end car to a close to same detailing package(granted I do not know your packages, but just say usual basic 95% correction package), then made threads, yours hands down would be much more traffic. Because your track record is amazing. You have much more information out there and your camera skills are much better than mine. People have seen more of your threads and have an idea to what they can expect in your thread. We both may have done the exact same quality of work, but mine might not be as flashy or crisp high quality pictures as yours. Meaning if they do go into mine, they will breeze right threw it.



    I have said this many times before, I use an old D50, which is a start DSLR, with the start basic lens. I am not the most camera savvy. I do not know fancy angels or ways to pose cars after. I just know to get 4 corner shots, few interior and some sun shots. I try to stay straight to the point on what I did and what the outcome is. Which, it does affect the traffic my threads get and they tend to fall off onto the mass amount of pages, unless I respond to someones comment I might have missed.



    Its the nature of the beast, those with less rapport, experience and years in the business, will always be held to a higher level.

  7. #37
    Nth Degree's Avatar
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    Many interesting thoughts. I like threads like this that provoke posts that exceed the standard 10 words and actually offer thought provoking ideas.



    I do agree that the C&Bs have become boring, but I also understand the various reasons why people post what they do. I resisted posting photos for a long time. I did not have the desire to stroke my ego or prove my competence. Then I had 3 different people ask me at different times within a week why I don`t post my photos and each made a good point. The advertising value cannot be denied. It helps people understand what you are capable of. Clients who love their cars love to see their cars posted online and it allows them to easily share their experience and refer others.



    For those who are simply working on their own cars, there is a lot of pride, not only in their car, but also the job they did. Creating a nice turn around on a car is rewarding. Those of us who have turned around scores or hundreds of cars have become numb to that feeling. Let them have their moment.



    I now rarely seek out C&B threads because there is often little for me to learn from them. It doesn`t matter to me what kind of car it is. The best write ups have some great details about the process. They can also become very boring, though. So a write up that focuses on one particularly difficult aspect can be a more educational without feeling like I`m reading a lecture.



    As for responding to the comments; I have been guilty of that at times. In part because I did not post them for the accolades or approval. I think many times it has been because many of us are on multiple sites, so I don`t feel the need to respond to each one on multiple sites. I also feel a certain camaraderie with many of the regular posters and I feel reciprocating comments on their posts implies the appreciation. And I agree that sometimes "Thanks" is really the only appropriate response to the all-too-common "Nice work" comment. (Sometimes driven by posting contests.) But point taken. I will be more conscientious about that.

  8. #38

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    I`m not a pro, but I have a lot of respect for those who detail for a living, and do it well. Proper detailing is very physically demanding, and the detailers who do quality work earn every penny they make.



    And, I learn a lot from their efforts. It has helped me in the past, and since I was pretty absent from detailing my own stuff in 2011 (didn`t get to polish once!), I am looking forward to learning about new techniques/products, etc.



    That said, I have always felt that the spirit of this forum was to better the detailing world for all of us, through exchange of ideas, experiences, etc. I did contribute to the "People That Only Post Pictures on Autopia" back in 2010, and I still feel that way.



    It does seem like more detailers are using this forum as an advertising tool only, and that is sad. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way society in general is headed. Though the Intenet is an important means of advertising one`s craft, I have always felt that this forum was much more than that.



    (Excuse me--I will get off my retired schoolteacher soapbox now.)



    I don`t know what can be done about it, if anything. I know that for me, that when I see posts from those who are "contributors to the art," I pay attention.



    And, for David, I`ll say WOOOOOOOOO! The "Nature Boy!" You made my day!

  9. #39

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    I`ll add my $.02. I`ve been lurking the site and read a lot of the C&Bs and the older Before & After section. Since it got re-arranged, I think the purpose got lost a bit. Sure, most of the posts are still from the same guys, but it just doesn`t seem to carry the same weight. Much of the reason I stop on Autopia is to show people what can be done. A lot of the Fermani, Scottwax, and Autolavish articles are the ones that drive the point home. I almost wonder if it should be submitted and reviewed so that the content is there before it really shines. That`s what I loved about the Pro detail B&A section. It seemed to keep people a little more honest, and the articles seemed to shine (no pun intended) more.



    I think the C&B articles are good reference material for people like myself. People that want to learn what works, where to begin, and some good schools of thought can skim over a C&B thread, maybe pick up a thing or two, and try it. Does it mean you`ll replicate it 100%? Probably not. But, you can see ideas in higher concentration in here more than anywhere else on this site.



    The nature of my post wasn`t to offend anyone, just offer insight from a casual detailer who finds usefulness in the articles, but agrees with David`s original post.
    -Steve

    2011 Mustang GT | Kona Blue Metallic

  10. #40

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    I agree with you overboost!



    when you see a TON of products on the market, yet see the same top pros using something completely different, its probably not because they dont know about the OTC products!!! That is one thing I try to do on MOST of my articles....tell what product I use for what step. Having a Before, and After section only post is pointless, put that up on your own website, not a detailing forum! On autopia, it helps to guide people who want to do things their own (part of the reason a lot of people are on this site in general) if you have the products listed. A C&B with menzerna this, HD, that, Meguiars here, etc is going to help a rookie detailer weed through, and skip, the horrible products on the market and try what is better known for producing better results...because lets face it, its NOT all in the technique. I have used some really crappy products and wasted a ton of money on in the past, so I would rather tell someone NOT to order that, but rather this!

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by toyotaguy
    I agree with you overboost!



    when you see a TON of products on the market, yet see the same top pros using something completely different, its probably not because they dont know about the OTC products!!! That is one thing I try to do on MOST of my articles....tell what product I use for what step. Having a Before, and After section only post is pointless, put that up on your own website, not a detailing forum! On autopia, it helps to guide people who want to do things their own (part of the reason a lot of people are on this site in general) if you have the products listed. A C&B with menzerna this, HD, that, Meguiars here, etc is going to help a rookie detailer weed through, and skip, the horrible products on the market and try what is better known for producing better results...because lets face it, its NOT all in the technique. I have used some really crappy products and wasted a ton of money on in the past, so I would rather tell someone NOT to order that, but rather this!


    Major point right here. I hate reading through anyones thread pro or weekend warrior and not knowing what they use. I would love to know combos from product, buffer and pad to see what results they yielded.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachNU
    Major point right here. I hate reading through anyones thread pro or weekend warrior and not knowing what they use. I would love to know combos from product, buffer and pad to see what results they yielded.


    Totally agree. Showing what you use builds credibility in my book. It gives people the chance to try and better understand what went into the process.
    -Steve

    2011 Mustang GT | Kona Blue Metallic

  13. #43
    CCH Auto Appearance, LLC C. Charles Hahn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcHarris
    Advancements and understanding of DA polishers has lead a lot of enthusiasts to start working on their own vehicles.


    I look at this as not a completely bad thing for business, quite frankly. Even with DA polishers becoming more advanced and accessible to the masses, it still takes some skill to produce a result in the end. Enthusiasts can work on their skills and get good after a considerable amount of practice, but if they need over-the-top quality in a short amount of time, there is still a call for professionals to offer their services, though maybe not always in the traditional sense.



    My contention is that professionals who wish to work with the enthusiast market can offer hands-on training on a one-on-one or small group basis for local enthusiasts who want to ultimately work on their cars themselves, and not have it significantly detract from their business in other segments of the market. There are plenty of cars out there, either exotics owned by people who would never work on them themselves, or daily drivers owned by people who couldn`t care less about trying to do their own detailing. The segment of enthusiasts with a drive to work on their cars actually represents a whole new market to explore since we now have a cost effective, relatively/comparatively safe, and "easy" to pick up way to get them where they want to go.



    Not only does this allow the professional to cater to people who they would otherwise never be earning any business from, but I have always found that teaching someone else how to do something often sparks new ideas and a better/deeper understanding myself of what I am doing. You`d be getting paid, helping someone else be a better detailer of their own vehicle(s), and seizing the opportunity to better yourself all in one fell swoop.



    The same applies to forum posts. Taking the time to break down the processes you use and put them into words for the benefit of others can help you spot redundant steps and inefficiencies that might otherwise never occur to you.



    One of the biggest fears I think people have when posting on a public forum is that potential customers, fellow detailers, and pretty much anyone else can see what is written and make judgement based upon it. It`s natural for someone who is trying to be and appear professional not to want to ever look "wrong" -- that is, if they post advice or an opinion that someone else can provide evidence is incorrect, people will see them as less professional. In many cases I think the opposite can be true. If people see someone post something that is wrong and then correct it, reacting in a positive and mature manner and learning from it can make others respect a professional MORE. No one is perfect, and someone with no flaws (or at least someone who is so unwilling to ever show or acknowledge any flaws) can in many ways be dangerous as compared to someone who embraces their flaws and uses them as a means to better themselves and provide a teachable moment for others.
    Charlie
    Automotive Appearance Specialist - Serving Greater Lansing, Michigan
    http://www.cchautoappearance.com/

  14. #44
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    For me in the beginning, 2004, it was nice to read about what other pro`s were doing. Products and techniques were much different then. It was hard to weed through products and techniques that would work on all paint. See their work and explanations on why they did that. See what LSP products looked liked the best.



    I have not visited the Click n Brags `much` in years. Besides the 100 picture write ups on garage queens and the endless 100% perfection claims. I lost interest.



    With the products today, 105, 101, UNO etc. It is not hard to pick up a machine and do quality work, if time and money allow it. Not trying to take away from anyone, just stating the facts.



    So doing a write up on paint correction, does not hold the same difficulty and intrigue it used to. Chest thumping is always fun, though.

  15. #45
    The Old Grey Whistle Test togwt's Avatar
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    Definitely an interesting subject for discussion



    The most valuable post’s of this elk are the one that explain the process and the products used, with a few 50/50 shots, these would be of more value than 100’s of photographs of polished, albeit scratch free panels.



    Consider your readership, Autopian’s know what an almost perfect polished surface looks like, someone looking for a pro detailer only want to see if you can make his vehicle ( which is probably not a Ferrari or a Maserati) look like it did when it came from the showroom. The other side of the coin is the up and coming detailer who is here to learn and wants to ‘know how and what’ was used to accomplish the results shown.



    This format (Click & Brag) is an invaluable advertising medium allied to a website and perhaps a blog where a prospective client can ask questions



    IMO a few picture and an explanation are both informative and instructive , a story that will hold the readers interest better than 100 shots of various panels i.e. (Detailer`s Domain: GMC Sierra Denali HD - Northern NJ - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums)







    Indulge me if I take this off-topic slightly; on various forums I`m always being asked (approx three times a day) to recommend a professional detailer in XX state and refer them to the Autopia’s Professional Detailer’s Directory - it will definitively improve your word-of-mouth recommendations; but if your business details aren`t listed ...





    What gets overlooked too often is that one must be a student before becoming a teacher.

 

 
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