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  1. #46
    SuperBee364's Avatar
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    As the other guys said... great post!
    Sage advice from Greg Nichols: "Hey, Supe? When you`re trying to get the air bubble out of your syringe of Opti-Coat, don`t point it at your face, mmmkay?"

  2. #47
    Kevin Brown's Avatar
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    Nice write-up for sure... Happy to see you had a good experience with this pad.



    I am the first to admit that it can be somewhat messy at times, and a little frustrating to learn. However- it is a LOT easier to learn than the rotary, especially if you are doing the learning on your own. YOU had a very positive experience using the Surbuf, but I caution others that your initial experience may be similarly positive OR more difficult. It just depends on the paint type, the depth and location of the defects, and of course the patience of the user!



    Quote Originally Posted by bufferbarry
    What a great first post like Accumulator said. First off let me say this. Kevin Brown is a very humble man who`s teachings could change a lot if people listen to him. I think its nice to see that someone gave a good reveiw on his advice. I think this is a excellant review. I only hope Kevin gets a chance to see this. Anyway thanks for an awesome reveiw. Welcome to Autopia.

    Barry


    Thank you very much for such kind words, Barry. You are a class act, my man!



    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator
    Heh heh, I was one person who got thoroughly bitten by trying to use the SurBuf pads with a mild product...messed things up but good. My take is that there are just some applications where these aren`t the right pad for the job.


    No- I also had a similar experience when I first started using these pads.

    That is, if I went after defects as I would using a typical foam polishing pad, I would create errant pigtails. That being said, I am confident that this pad can successfully be used to apply things like cleaner waxes, and on some paints, it could be used for applying waxes. Then again, it would likely take a bit of practice to get a satisfactory result. If someone out there wanted to use JUST this type of pad to remove defects, then polish the paint, and finally apply a wax, I would not bet against the guy becuse motivation, patience, and a dogged attitude towards making things work cannot be discounted.



    If YOU were put in a contest, head-to-head with another paint polishing guy, and you both had to use just this pad to do everything, how much would YOU bet that one of you couldn`t make it work?!? Hmmmmm?



    I am not saying that it would be the most efficient way to go about things. What is a neat thing about this pad is that a guy that does not know how to rotary polish can use it with the described method to remove some pretty serious defects via random orbital.



    Do not be fooled into thinking that this pad cannot cause damage, because it certainly is capable of removing a lot of paint in a hurry, and it can really lock onto the paint!!! I know of at least one instance of paint twisting with this pad, so do not think of it as some foo-foo lightweight pad. This pad can damage paint. Be very careful when buffing plastic panels, bumpers, side view mirrors, and other parts that may have been painted using flex agents.



    Once again, I want to mention that gmblack3 (Bryan Burnworth) has a lot of experience using this method, so he may be a guy that can help interested parties with some tips & tricks!





    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBee364



    As the other guys said... great post!


    Agreed! :goodjob

  3. #48

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    KBM via Surbuf pad:



    This process can be messy.



    7" surbuf pad.

    6" BP

    PC or XPPC

    Straight IPA



    1. Do not prime the surbuf pad.

    2. Apply 4 "larger then pea sized" dots of M105 to the pad.

    3. Work the polish into an 12x12" area without turning on your PC.

    4. Spritz the surface with water.

    5. As in step 3, again work the polish around without turning on your PC, you are looking for a milky consistency.

    6. Turn on PC and work the polish till it appears to dry.

    7. Spritz more water onto the suface and continue to polish. What this does is bring the polish out of the pad and back to the surface.

    8. I have found that you will need IPA sprayed onto your MF to remove the M105 from the surface.

    9. Inspect and repeat if needed.



    Notes:

    If you find that one time is not enough to remove defects, you can always repeat #7 and keep on polishing.



    After 2-3 sections, you will need to clean the pad by brushing off the pad and blowing out the excess polish with compressed air. After the pad becomes overly saturated w/ polish clean with warn water and some APC. Spin to dry. The pad does not have to be totally dry to use it again.



    I have removed severe defects and 2000 grit wetsanding marks with this method.



    Depedning on the hardness of the clear, you "might" be able to go right to M205 with a gray finishing pad via the KBM. Sometimes a middle step with M205/orange pad via KBM is required.



    IMO this method will level paint as good as a rotary.
    Bryan Burnworth - Atlanta Car Detailing - Peachstate Detail LLC

    Selected as one of the top nine detailers in the US by Autoweek

    Published in the 356 Registry

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  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmblack3a
    KBM via Surbuf pad:



    This process can be messy.



    7" surbuf pad.

    6" BP

    PC or XPPC

    Straight IPA



    1. Do not prime the surbuf pad.

    2. Apply 4 "larger then pea sized" dots of M105 to the pad.

    3. Work the polish into an 12x12" area without turning on your PC.

    4. Spritz the surface with water.

    5. As in step 3, again work the polish around without turning on your PC, you are looking for a milky consistency.

    6. Turn on PC and work the polish till it appears to dry.

    7. Spritz more water onto the suface and continue to polish. What this does is bring the polish out of the pad and back to the surface.

    8. I have found that you will need IPA sprayed onto your MF to remove the M105 from the surface.

    9. Inspect and repeat if needed.



    Notes:

    If you find that one time is not enough to remove defects, you can always repeat #7 and keep on polishing.



    After 2-3 sections, you will need to clean the pad by brushing off the pad and blowing out the excess polish with compressed air. After the pad becomes overly saturated w/ polish clean with warn water and some APC. Spin to dry. The pad does not have to be totally dry to use it again.



    I have removed severe defects and 2000 grit wetsanding marks with this method.



    Depedning on the hardness of the clear, you "might" be able to go right to M205 with a gray finishing pad via the KBM. Sometimes a middle step with M105/orange pad via KBM is required.



    IMO this method will level paint as good as a rotary.


    Is there a way either you or Kevin Brown can make a video to better explain your finding with the surbuf pad and 105? Just a short video showing a test panel.



    Not saying you havent already explain your finding well, you have by all means and I am truly impressed! Just something to study and learn from, I learn better by example then learning from raw data, more visual in other words. Thanks again!
    United States Air Force

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  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetailnByDustn
    Is there a way either you or Kevin Brown can make a video to better explain your finding with the surbuf pad and 105? Just a short video showing a test panel.



    Not saying you havent already explain your finding well, you have by all means and I am truly impressed! Just something to study and learn from, I learn better by example then learning from raw data, more visual in other words. Thanks again!


    The next time I get a car to do at the house that needs the surbuf pads, I will do that. Not sure when that will be. Wish I would thought of it on that vette.
    Bryan Burnworth - Atlanta Car Detailing - Peachstate Detail LLC

    Selected as one of the top nine detailers in the US by Autoweek

    Published in the 356 Registry

    The only exclusive Opti-Coat Pro specialist in Atlanta

    All PPF work done by the best in Atlanta Derek Johnson of Atlanta Protective Films

    Follow Peachstate Detail LLC on Facebook here.

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmblack3a
    KBM via Surbuf pad:



    ...[clear, detailed description]....


    Thanks for posting that!

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmblack3a
    The next time I get a car to do at the house that needs the surbuf pads, I will do that. Not sure when that will be. Wish I would thought of it on that vette.


    No worries, whenever you get a chance, I would be interested in buying some subuf pads after I`ve seen how to properly use them.
    United States Air Force

    Missile Maintenance Technician

    Barksdale AFB



    2005 SS Silverado



    2011 Honda Fury


  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetailnByDustn
    Is there a way either you or Kevin Brown can make a video to better explain your finding with the surbuf pad and 105? Just a short video showing a test panel.



    Not saying you havent already explain your finding well, you have by all means and I am truly impressed! Just something to study and learn from, I learn better by example then learning from raw data, more visual in other words. Thanks again!


    Well, honestly, the best way is to take the ideas of other people and derive a method that works for you. For instance, on some paint, I simply use the Surbuf pad as I would any other foam pads, and the result is almost similar to that of a WOOL pad on a ROTARY! The bottom line is, you do not really have to follow the exact procedures described by other people. You can develop your own through testing. Chance is that different methods would yield similar results. The different methods being discussed, I believe, determine the aggressiveness of the setup. Priming the Surbuf pads will give you a somewhat longer working time as well as slightly more cutting power, at the cost of using more product. Also, if you desire a higher rotational speed, use Last Touch as a form of lubrication for the surbuf pad during the buffing process. Using Last Touch as lubricant also prolongs the working time of the product, and creates less gum up of product. Other factors such as pressure, humidity, temperature could still affect the results of your buffing, and thus influencing the procedures you need to perform.



    Anyway, I did some more testing today. I wetsanded my hood using 2500 grit sandpaper to remove some very slight orange peel. Instead of using a rotary and a wool pad, I opted for the Surbuf pad and DA setup. My decision to use the Surbuf pad over the wool and rotary is based on the fact that I am only doing the hood, so I do not want to break open the glass case and reach for the wool, which is a chore to clean. The Surbuf pad is extremely easy to clean and doesn`t smell like dead sheep.



    here are the results. The Surbuf pad has completely removed all the sanding marks. The product I used was Ultimate Compound. I do not see the need for M105, but I also wanted something more aggressive than M205, which is claimed to be powerful enough to remove 2000 grit sanding marks with the Surbuf pad. To me, UC simply makes sense because it is a very cheap product that is easily obtainable.



    From what I read on Meguiar`s Online, UC has a very similar aggressiveness to M105. The major difference, from my understanding, is that UC is not intended to be use with a rotary and that it is not suitable for bodyshop environment. The M105 can be applied in whatever way desired, even in the bodyshop setting. The fact that UC is not suitable for rotary application gives it an apparent limitation that it is not a product intended for sanding mark removal. With the Surbuf pad thrown into the equation, that changes completely.





    Here are some pictures after the buffing with UC and Surbuf:





















    I did a Alcohol solution wipe after compounding to ensure that the oil in Ultimate Compound was not filling in the sanding scratches. All the sanding marks were removed. One thing I would like to note is that unlike M105, Ultimate Compound coupled with Surbuf did not leave any holograms, swirls, or scratches on the black paint. Also, unlike M105, UC was much easier to remove. Although M105 and Surbuf together can remove some serious defects, UC also works EXTREMELY well. In fact, ease of application and removal of UC make it another ideal product for use with the Surbuf pad. Soo... don`t sweat it if you don`t have M105, but want to try the Surbuf pad. UC will work just as well for removing wetsanding marks.





    To ensure a perfect finish, I followed up the process with SwirlX and a polishing pad. The result was stunning. Unfortunately, due to my haste in LSP application, I left some significant streaking on the hood with NXT 2.0. Oh, well.

  9. #54
    maesal's Avatar
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    :goodjob the_invisible !!

    Yesterday I removed some serious marks in my car with 105 and Surbuf pads. I have to try them with UC. And maybe 205 + Surbuf will be a nice combo for 1 step correction...

  10. #55
    autoconcierge's Avatar
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    It is funny, but things such as techniques that can take years to find and perfect Kevin has explained in such scientific detail but in lay terms that MOST of us can readily use.This is almost harder than thinking up this stuff in the first place.......... true correction knowledge on display for all to benefit from!!!!!!!!!.

  11. #56
    mikenap's Avatar
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    Wow, another bookmarked thread. Great detailed info from both KB and gmblack. As for the_invisible, even with a single-digit post count you`ve made the best of them for sure. Now i have to add Surbuf pads to my Must-Buy list.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_invisible
    Well, honestly, the best way is to take the ideas of other people and derive a method that works for you. For instance, on some paint, I simply use the Surbuf pad as I would any other foam pads, and the result is almost similar to that of a WOOL pad on a ROTARY! The bottom line is, you do not really have to follow the exact procedures described by other people. You can develop your own through testing. Chance is that different methods would yield similar results. The different methods being discussed, I believe, determine the aggressiveness of the setup. Priming the Surbuf pads will give you a somewhat longer working time as well as slightly more cutting power, at the cost of using more product. Also, if you desire a higher rotational speed, use Last Touch as a form of lubrication for the surbuf pad during the buffing process. Using Last Touch as lubricant also prolongs the working time of the product, and creates less gum up of product. Other factors such as pressure, humidity, temperature could still affect the results of your buffing, and thus influencing the procedures you need to perform.



    Anyway, I did some more testing today. I wetsanded my hood using 2500 grit sandpaper to remove some very slight orange peel. Instead of using a rotary and a wool pad, I opted for the Surbuf pad and DA setup. My decision to use the Surbuf pad over the wool and rotary is based on the fact that I am only doing the hood, so I do not want to break open the glass case and reach for the wool, which is a chore to clean. The Surbuf pad is extremely easy to clean and doesn`t smell like dead sheep.



    here are the results. The Surbuf pad has completely removed all the sanding marks. The product I used was Ultimate Compound. I do not see the need for M105, but I also wanted something more aggressive than M205, which is claimed to be powerful enough to remove 2000 grit sanding marks with the Surbuf pad. To me, UC simply makes sense because it is a very cheap product that is easily obtainable.



    From what I read on Meguiar`s Online, UC has a very similar aggressiveness to M105. The major difference, from my understanding, is that UC is not intended to be use with a rotary and that it is not suitable for bodyshop environment. The M105 can be applied in whatever way desired, even in the bodyshop setting. The fact that UC is not suitable for rotary application gives it an apparent limitation that it is not a product intended for sanding mark removal. With the Surbuf pad thrown into the equation, that changes completely.



    I did a Alcohol solution wipe after compounding to ensure that the oil in Ultimate Compound was not filling in the sanding scratches. All the sanding marks were removed. One thing I would like to note is that unlike M105, Ultimate Compound coupled with Surbuf did not leave any holograms, swirls, or scratches on the black paint. Also, unlike M105, UC was much easier to remove. Although M105 and Surbuf together can remove some serious defects, UC also works EXTREMELY well. In fact, ease of application and removal of UC make it another ideal product for use with the Surbuf pad. Soo... don`t sweat it if you don`t have M105, but want to try the Surbuf pad. UC will work just as well for removing wetsanding marks.





    To ensure a perfect finish, I followed up the process with SwirlX and a polishing pad. The result was stunning. Unfortunately, due to my haste in LSP application, I left some significant streaking on the hood with NXT 2.0. Oh, well.


    Thanks for sharing your experience using UC and the surbuf pads. I will be sure to give that a try.
    Bryan Burnworth - Atlanta Car Detailing - Peachstate Detail LLC

    Selected as one of the top nine detailers in the US by Autoweek

    Published in the 356 Registry

    The only exclusive Opti-Coat Pro specialist in Atlanta

    All PPF work done by the best in Atlanta Derek Johnson of Atlanta Protective Films

    Follow Peachstate Detail LLC on Facebook here.

  13. #58

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    Just wondering, has anyone tried using the Surbuf pads with something other than M105? More specifically a diminishing abrasive like Menzerna SIP?
    2015 Audi Q5

  14. #59

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    Just did some searching on Autopia for Surbuf pads. Looks like these pads go back to 2002 on the searches. I`m surprised it hasn`t been hyped more over the past 7+ years.



    I`m curious if the 3" pads would be good for spot polishing on a rotary. I`m currently using 4" LC Orange foam for spot compounding which works pretty good with M105. I was not impressed using 3.5" LC PFW on the rotary with M105. I doubt these Surbuf pads would work well on rotary since they were designed for Random Orbitals but at $14 for 8 for the 3" version perhaps it`s worth a shot.



    I also own a Flex 3401 and I`m interested in a better compounding pad for it. Perhaps these Surbuf pads would be the way to go? I`ve tried both 6.5" LC PFW and the 6" TufBuff Black Lambs Wool pads on the Flex and wasn`t impressed with either. Perhaps I`m biased because I`m a rotary user who likes to use good ole` wool? Am I expecting too much?
    Abralon Surfaced-Makita Powered-Club Flex Finished

  15. #60
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABQDetailer
    Just did some searching on Autopia for Surbuf pads. Looks like these pads go back to 2002 on the searches. I`m surprised it hasn`t been hyped more over the past 7+ years.


    It`s gained popularity here ever since M105/KBM was discovered by Kevin Brown via Bryan & Todd.



    Quote Originally Posted by ABQDetailer
    I`m curious if the 3" pads would be good for spot polishing on a rotary. I also own a Flex 3401 and I`m interested in a better compounding pad for it. Perhaps these Surbuf pads would be the way to go? I`ve tried both 6.5" LC PFW and the 6" TufBuff Black Lambs Wool pads on the Flex and wasn`t impressed with either. Perhaps I`m biased because I`m a rotary user who likes to use good ole` wool? Am I expecting too much?




    Surbuf pads are designed specifically for use on random orbit sanders/polishers and probably would inflict some major damage if used with a rotary. They are not like traditional wool pads in any way. Probably as close as you can get to being an all out furry sanding disk. :chuckle:
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