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  1. #46
    Rasky's Auto Detailing RaskyR1's Avatar
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    I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. 1:

  2. #47
    Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaskyR1
    I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. 1:


    I agree, this doesn`t happen nearly enough.

  3. #48
    The Old Grey Whistle Test togwt's Avatar
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    Dr.G I appreciate your input / comments.



    I researched ultra violet coat chemicals (PPG, DuPont, et al) and amount used and came up empty, Benzotriazole only came up in terms of a corrosion inhibitor. I don`t understand why paint specs should be such a mystery, or maybe I`m looking in the wrong places (chem engineering ref books)is probably not the right place
    What gets overlooked too often is that one must be a student before becoming a teacher.

  4. #49
    Dr. G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOGWT
    Dr.G I appreciate your input / comments.



    I researched ultra violet coat chemicals (PPG, DuPont, et al) and amount used and came up empty, Benzotriazole only came up in terms of a corrosion inhibitor. I don`t understand why paint specs should be such a mystery, or maybe I`m looking in the wrong places (chem engineering ref books)is probably not the right place


    Jon,



    Thank you for asking. Any technical information that I have shared here is public information but I can not talk about the specifics due to the confidentiality of the formulations I worked on. The formulation information that you are asking for is publicly available, however, not via google since these are highly specific and technical information. The place to search for them is in patents which are public domain. Just go to United States Patent and Trademark Office website and follow the menu to search for patents. To get you started, check patent #6060573 which was awarded to Bayer Corporation in May of 2000 for a novel one component isocyanate that is stablized from UV damage by using a combination of benzotriazoles and HALS. They discuss the UV stablizers levels in this patent which is what I think you are looking for. I hope this helps.



    David,

  5. #50

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    David, you did all you could.

    As you presented, it is very difficult, if not almost impossible to share all with those who ask questions.

    Then, as we both are aware, no matter what the information or sources provided, there are those who will continue to question and "twist" whatever the information provides.

    As we are both not only business people, but who have spent years of working in the industry, this is nothing new to us.

    Legal issues have to be addressed, as well as when such direction is provided, acceptance of "ego`s" will be part of the experience.

    I would assume that one of those things we have learned to accept is that there will always be those who just refuse to accept documented or information provided by some who have spent years doing what they wish to do, will go back to "ego driven" responses.

    These things just don`t make them feel happy or "learned" about a subject matter.

    Grumpy

  6. #51
    Dr. G's Avatar
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    Ron,



    Thank you for your wise words.



    David,

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaskyR1
    I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. 1:


    Without a doubt. I only wish I could meet some of these guys in person to pick their brains. Amazing wealth of knowledge: I just wish I was intelligent enough to ask all the right questions.
    Marc Harris from AutoLavish Fine Automobile Care of Michigan

  8. #53
    The Old Grey Whistle Test togwt's Avatar
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    David, Thank you for the info and resource link.



    I realize that all companies must keep secure their proprietary information and agreements. Without this, no business would have the incentive to develop new products, expand their market, stay competitive, and ultimately - exist.



    But I`m sure you can understand with your chemical background. I prefer to check the claims made by most product vendors, as at best they are mostly marketing fiction as opposed to fact, especially when it comes to the chemicals used
    What gets overlooked too often is that one must be a student before becoming a teacher.

  9. #54
    Rasky's Auto Detailing RaskyR1's Avatar
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    Well now that we have a consensus on this topic I think we need to change the direction of this thread and reiterate the importance of educating out clients on proper care, using the least aggressive method to get the job done so that we are not removing unnecessary amounts of clear, and we need to make sure we are not over polishing cars just to strive for 100% correction all the time.



    The UV migration from the wax is something I was not aware of and I think this is great info that can help us explain the importance/benefit of waxing to our clients.



    Most importantly, I think these new coatings like Opti-Coat are revolutionary to our business. By offering these type of products to our clients we are in a sense offing them a renewable clear coat, but with much better properties (better scratch and Mar resistance, better release properties, better UV resistance, better gloss retention...). I`ve been using this information to help sell Opti-Coat to my clients for a while now, especially the ones with new cars sporting very thin OEM paints (Infiniti`s with 80-90 microns). I don`t really try to sell it as a permanent coating so much, rather I simply highlight the attributes above and let them know that when it does come time for polishing again, we will be removing less OEM paint, and we will be adding in more UV protection to replenish whatever we may have removed.





    I think this thread should be a sticky too!





    Rasky

  10. #55
    Dr. G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOGWT
    David, Thank you for the info and resource link.



    I realize that all companies must keep secure their proprietary information and agreements. Without this, no business would have the incentive to develop new products, expand their market, stay competitive, and ultimately - exist.



    But I`m sure you can understand with your chemical background. I prefer to check the claims made by most product vendors, as at best they are mostly marketing fiction as opposed to fact, especially when it comes to the chemicals used


    Jon,



    I think it is great that you help educate people on these complicated issues. I agree with you that you should look for other sources than the manufacturers for information and that is the reason why I never get involved in discussions relating to product performance.



    David,

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
    Can we get some plain-English translators in this thread please? :



    Even my two years of Chemistry back in high school is proving worthless right now


    No kidding, I am hopelessly lost now!
    www.scottwax.com

    Certified Opti-Coat Pro/Pro 3 installer

  12. #57

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    Getting back on topic, I`d be very surprised if even a heavy polishing session took off even .1 mil of clear. I remember when Joe (Superior Shine) did just that. Took off .3 mil with wetsanding and paint thickness didn`t drop after he polished out the sanding marks. However, it is best if you use proper washing techniques so as to minimize the need to regularly compound the paint. I recently re-detailed a Mini Cooper I had corrected via rotary in April 2010. At the time, I went over the proper washing techniques with the owner of the car. When I revisited the car a few days ago, the paint was still nearly 100% corrected. All it took was a light claying and OHP with the Meguiars microfiber finishing pad to jewel out the paint and add some depth. If the owner keeps up his washing regiment, his car will likely never need a major correction again and that is what we should strive for.
    www.scottwax.com

    Certified Opti-Coat Pro/Pro 3 installer

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwax
    Getting back on topic, I`d be very surprised if even a heavy polishing session took off even .1 mil of clear. I remember when Joe (Superior Shine) did just that. Took off .3 mil with wetsanding and paint thickness didn`t drop after he polished out the sanding marks..


    I`ve taken off that much and more with "just a heavy polishing session" (i.e, no wetsanding, not even using the rotaries). I forget the exact numbers but I had some areas of the MPV diminished by 1/2mil compared to the rest of it (and the rest was very thin too, 3mils was "thick" on that car) and I took off even more of some places of the Yukon XLD. The current owners of both better not do any singificant polishing or they`re gonna need painwork.



    I quit compounding the Crown Vic`s issues at the point where the readings got down under 110microns, and that`s a fair bit of removal too (though I`ve seen those cars withstand much more removal, at least in the short-term). Sorta surprised me how terrible it still looked after taking off all that clear, not even close to "Autopian"...just so much residual marring (good thing it`s a white beater-car).

  14. #59
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaskyR1
    I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. 1:


    Holy Epic thread Batman, this one will go down in Autopia history for sure. 5*`s. Thanks to Ron & David for colaborating on the search for extreme knowledge to help Autpians! You guys are truly a wealth of information and Autopia is priviledged to have you here. Out of the 100`s of people in the know, I value your opinions over most everyones! :thx
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

  15. #60
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaskyR1
    Hey Fermani...



    Since we are talking about all this it would be interesting to hear/see how the leveled hood on your car has held up over the last 2 years now? For those who may not know, David removed significantly more clear than the manufacture recommends on the hood of his brand new Fusion (Ford .3 Mil). On top of that, the car is also exposed to the Florida elements 24/7, and it`s also being washed using Dawn or harsh touch-less washes with no added protection on half the hood (Opti-Guard on the other half).



    David, did you by any chance take before and after PTG readings on the hood? I`m assuming you removed a good 15 microns (.6 Mil) , if not more...



    Only reason I bring this up is that I`ve seen a lot of conflicting information on this topic (UV migration) and it would be nice to see solid data or evidence on the matter.





    David`s car



    Thanks,

    Rasky


    You`re going to have to wait for the grand finale coming in the next couple months to see the final results & assessments of my review. For the record, I sanded the hood flat (lots of 1500), coated 1/2 of it, nothing on the other 1/2 and have washed with Dawn & touchless washes (w/o hot wax)while it remains in the hot sun (engine running) everyday. Even though I didn`t take any initial readings prior to the test, I have measured the car after and the readings are all over the map on the hood. As much as a .8 variance from coated(peak) to bare (low).
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

 

 
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