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  1. #91

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    Water molecules, heavy oil molecules, and nutrients that are good for leather are different types of molecules. The cheap oil based products used by many products are not good for leather as the oil does not absorb into the protein based leather fiber, it actually pushes the fragile fibers further apart.



    The method Roger Koh is describing is exactly what Leatherique has been advocating for 50 years. The Leatherique Rejuvenator is distributed by many of the supporters of this forum, is used worldwide by conservators, museums, as well as do it yourselfers, and is actually a leather specific protein based complex that is absorbed into the fibers of the hide to restore tensile strength and luxurious suppleness, and dirt by it`s own nature and weight is floated out of the hide and can be safely cleaned with Leatherique`s ph correct Prestine clean. You can use Rejuvenator 2-4 times per year to maintain the leather, and Prestine clean each time you dust or detail as it`s a cleaner and light conditioner in one step for the surface cleaning. Leatherique also manufactures leather dyes, crack filler, and prepping agents if your color is worn, faded, or cracking.



    Water from rain, drinks, coffee, coke, kids juice packs and sip cups, as well as high ph type cleaners and perspiration are all easily absorbed through the finish as the finish is NOT WATER PROOF. The newer water based finishes that leather manufacturers have been using since the 1990`s, as well as the surface sprayed lacquers from the `80`s back are on the surface to protect the hides and give them customer appeal. Cars, furniture, jackets, bags would be boring if everything was all natural tan in color.



    You can easily test leather absorption yourself. Cut a scrap of leather from a salvage seat in a junk yard. Pour a few ounces of black coffee on top, and within a few hours you`ll see the dark stain underneath on the hide.



    We have leather in our cars because leather is luxurious, breathes, adjusts to body temperature. These are things vinyl simply can`t do.



    We treat leather and vinyl differently, because they are different. There are grades of vinyl that are more water resistant, which is why they are used in marine applications. You don`t see much leather used as a convertible top to protect against rain. It is too heavy, and even if the surface is sealed, it will eventually absorb the rain. Leather is sometimes used as a convertible top cover on Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Bentley, but they presume you`ll stow the leather conver in the boot during rain, and put the canvas convertible top back up.



    The purpose of all cleaners is to emulsify dirt, turn it to mud so it can be floated away. On a porous surface like leather, often the mud is re-abosrbed back into the hide creating a perpetual dirty appearance especially on light leathers. The products that "finish" the surface also trap dirt.



    Different folks like the smells or glossy looks of many of the commercial products. And they are fine to use as a dressing, as long as you are aware that all they are doing is making the coated surface shiney which makes for a nicely detailed car. For long lasting leather, it is vital to use a specific leather nourishment such as Leatherique Rejuvenator a few times a year to keep the actual hide healthy and strong, as the backbone of your upholstery to prevent splitting and cracking due to the fibers pulling apart, as well as to keep the finished surface shiney.



    Perspiration from our bodies also has a high ph that can ruin and dry the hide as the salts are easily absorbed into the hides. Surely everyone has seen leather steering wheels and arm rests degrade and crack due to the absorption of perspiration. These are important areas to keep nourished and very clean. Another area that is often missed in leather care is the top of the back seat. These can literally fall aprt with a light touch as uv rays of the sun coming through slanty rear windows degrades the hides. I have seen the tops of back seats become powder, yet a few inches lower the leather is fine.



    Proper leather care is vital to the life and appearance of your car, very expensive to replace, and deserving of all the attention it is getting in this discussion. Most lay people are not aware of the slight modifications to different years of cars. If you car looks like new, people perceive it as new even though it can be many years old. A luxurious leather interior that looks and feels like new will always maintain the value in your car.

    regards,

    George

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBee364
    But is fatliquor able to penetrate the coating on my car seat leather? It seems like it would have to penetrate the coating in order to work, otherwise it would be like putting lotion on your hands while wearing gloves.



    The video shows the fat liquoring process is done before any coatings are applied.



    I`m just not seeing the benefit of applying fatliquor to coated leather.


    ---------------------------





    1. Fatliquor will “NOT” penetrate the coating of leather car seat, unless it has developed micro-cracks that allow fatliquor or any liquid to seep through these impervious urethane topcoats.



    2. Yes, unless it penetrate the weak point, orifice (maybe look over with a minifying glass better still use USB microscope that hooks up to your computer screen), it is useless and need to wipe off.



    3. On a brand new auto, I would apply only to the perforated panel, it will soak through these perforation and spread through the entire leather structure.



    4. A well fatliquor perforated panel will have a perfect circle, micro cracks will developed once the leather seat is constantly park under summer heat.



    5. It is these perforation or needle holes that the deterioration begins, and it is also the first locations that lose it original fatliquor.



    6. When you see cracks, fatliquor would not help, it is too late!



    7. You will only see the benefit of applying fatliquor to coated leathers that either developed micro-cracks, worn, needle-holes or the perforated panels!

  3. #93
    I see you..... wytstang's Avatar
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    Water molecules, heavy oil molecules, and nutrients that are good for leather are different types of molecules. The cheap oil based products used by many products are not good for leather as the oil does not absorb into the protein based leather fiber, it actually pushes the fragile fibers further apart.
    So water IS good for leather, no? and certain oils can get passed the coating?
    "Life is not measured by the breathes we take, but by the moments that take our breathes away" :punk:

  4. #94
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    Yes water is good for leather and no oils cannot get past the coating unless it is cracked in which case the pigment should be restored not filled with waxes and/or oils which may make restoration more difficult.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by judyb
    Yes water is good for leather and no oils cannot get past the coating unless it is cracked in which case the pigment should be restored not filled with waxes and/or oils which may make restoration more difficult.


    ----







    Water can be so… good!



    Water can be so… bad!



    It depends on the pH of the water!



    It also depends on its purity or the solids that it carries!



    So, a leather-safe pure water should have a pH value of 3 - 5.





    Roger Koh

    Leather Doctor

  6. #96
    JAFO Junebug's Avatar
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    Whoa, step away for a few days and good God, got three more experts all giving somewhat conflicting advice (ph matters - no it doesn`t, water is good - no, use oil) etc, so what the hell do you do? Well, just my opinion based on my observed results and the advice from my Toyota owners manual:

    Keep it clean, vac,

    Wipe any excess dirt and dust away with a soft cloth dampened with a diluted detergent. Use a diluted water solution of approximately 5% neutral wool detergent

    Wring out any excess water from the cloth and thoroughly wipe off all remaining traces of dteregent

    Wipe the surface with a dry, soft cloth to remove any remaining moister. Allow to dry in a shaded ventilated area.



    per the 2008 Highlander owner`s manual, page 401

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh
    So, a leather-safe pure water should have a pH value of 3 - 5.


    Wait, what?







    (pic link hotter than pH 3 - 5 in your eye)



    Either you`re being tongue-in-cheek, or you have no idea what pH means.



    Tort

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by TortoiseAWD
    Wait, what?





    (pic link hotter than pH 3 - 5 in your eye)



    Either you`re being tongue-in-cheek, or you have no idea what pH means.



    Tort


    ---------------





    We shall conduct a test to proof it so!



    Maybe in a convention, as the above picture suggested!



    Loser pay the bill!



    Are you game enough?



    Roger Koh

    Leather Doctor

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by judyb
    Here are a couple of articles we wrote back in 2007 when this issue first hit the various forums - may make interesting reading for those seeking further information.











    On some forums recently there has been much reference to the pH levels. I find this very confusing and unnecessary. In 20 years of successful cleaning and restoring leather I have never once referred to or been influenced by pH values. My advice would be to use specific leather products that have been tried and tested by your supplier who should also be willing to support you through any problems. The constant reference to pH may lead some cleaning operatives to think that pH is more important than product formulation and can therefore use any cleaner of the correct pH. Leather is NOT a fabric and cleans in a different way for which specific products have been formulated. These would have the correct pH values for the job they are designed for, you and I do not need to worry about them even if we do know them. Strong acids and strong alkalines and dry solvents all have the potential to damage leather finishes, don’t use them for cleaning, your cleaners if correctly supplied will not be of that nature.

    .




    -------------------





    Well there should be enough interest on the subject of pH in regards to cleaning leathers.



    You think so?



    Roger Koh

    Leather Doctor





    Roger Koh

    Leather Doctor

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh
    ---------------





    We shall conduct a test to proof it so!



    Maybe in a convention!



    Loser pay the bill!



    Are you game enough?



    Roger Koh

    Leather Doctor


    What in the name of science are you talking about? Pure water has a pH of 7 *by definition*. If you`re not talking about pure, neutral water, then say so instead of being vague. You`re either a) not talking about pure water, b) unclear on what pH means, or c) doing a tap-dance to say that a leather-safe solution should have a pH of 3 - 5, in which case you`re no longer talking about pure water.



    pH of pure water

    pH Definition

    Why is pH = 7 the neutral point?



    A pH of 3 - 5 is roughly equivalent to the acidity of orange juice. I`m no chemist, but I do recall my high school science.



    Tort

  11. #101
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    What`s the expert concensus on using steam to clean leather? Pros / Cons??
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by TortoiseAWD
    What in the name of science are you talking about? Pure water has a pH of 7 *by definition*. If you`re not talking about pure, neutral water, then say so instead of being vague. You`re either a) not talking about pure water, b) unclear on what pH means, or c) doing a tap-dance to say that a leather-safe solution should have a pH of 3 - 5, in which case you`re no longer talking about pure water.



    pH of pure water

    pH Definition

    Why is pH = 7 the neutral point?



    A pH of 3 - 5 is roughly equivalent to the acidity of orange juice. I`m no chemist, but I do recall my high school science.



    Tort


    ---------------



    By the way where do you get your pure water?



    Have you ever take a pH reading of "your pure water" yourself?



    Instead of passing on secondhand information, which is not yours!



    We are professional that practice not just talk!



    By the way I calibrate my pH meter before I take readings, and mind you I need more than two pH meters to confirm my readings.



    I do practice pH...You known what I mean?



    And the name of science is "Leather Chemistry".



    What ever a leather chemist practice I practice too - the tannery chemist!



    Another reference:



    When comes to color - by definition "White" is not a color - check it out - Google it!



    By practice in leather refinishing "White" is a color.



    Because we practice "Leather Chemistry".

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh
    ---------------



    By the way where do you get your pure water?



    Have you ever take a pH reading of "your pure water" yourself?



    Instead of passing on secondhand information, which is not yours!



    We are professional that practice not just talk!


    Feh. Done with you. That "secondhand" information is freaking chemistry, math, and physics. I will happily agree that not all water has a pH of 7 because it is not pure. Tap water ranges (in general) between 6.5 and 7.5. Pure water, again BY DEFINITION has a pH of 7 otherwise it`s no longer pure water.



    BTW, most science is built on second-hand information. We stand on the shoulders of giants. In this case, his name is Søren Peder Lauritz Sørensen. If you have problems with the scale he invented, you can take it up with him.



    Is leather chemistry some special branch of chemistry that gets to make up its own definitions?



    Tort

  14. #104
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    Hmmm.. There`s not really any need to ask questions about a scientific fact that has been known for a long, long time: the Ph of pure water is 7.0.



    Muddying the waters (pardon the word play)with questions about where you get your pure water from is not at all relevant. What *is* relevant is that the Ph of pure water is 7.
    Sage advice from Greg Nichols: "Hey, Supe? When you`re trying to get the air bubble out of your syringe of Opti-Coat, don`t point it at your face, mmmkay?"

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBee364
    Hmmm.. There`s not really any need to ask questions about a scientific fact that has been known for a long, long time: the Ph of pure water is 7.0.



    Muddying the waters (pardon the word play)with questions about where you get your pure water from is not at all relevant. What *is* relevant is that the Ph of pure water is 7.




    -----



    I can proof you wrong anytime, anyplace too!



    Don`t yo have a convention go to - and proof it there!



    As I said looser pays the bill!



    What I need is two or three well calibrated pH meters.



    Scientific instruments tell no lies!

 

 
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