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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsoto87
    Man, this thread did nothing but confuse me more.



    How are us common folk supposed to know what to do when the experts can`t even agree.


    -----------





    You may be confused, I am not.



    Where is the logic that a very old car can be conditioned with water “and this returned the leather to being very soft and supple” is impervious to other solution especially fatliquor - “the lifeblood of leather”.





    Roger Koh

    Leather Doctor

  2. #77
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    With all the technical aspects involved in auto leather care, it`s a shame that almost every company that offers detailing supplies attempts to offer leather care products too. These products, unbenounced to the end user, probably will have damaging effects on their leather surfaces. How necessary are all these conditioners, cleaners, combo cocktails, oils and feeding processes to the whole scheme of properly maintaining leather? As detailers, we want something easy as possible that will safely clean leather and another that will *properly* preserve it. Why are there so many variables to this simple equation? It would be great if there was a product offered that is known/proven to damage a surface, to have these products outlawed in the industry? Probably won`t happen, I know, but atleast discussions can take place here so that all who read can learn right from wrong.
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

  3. #78

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    Originally Posted by Roger Koh

    >>>PPS: After thinking about this for a minute I would conclude that the PH level of the cleaning solution is pretty irrelevant when cleaning protected leathers. You are not cleaning the raw leather anyway. You are cleaning the urethane coating on the leather.

    __________________

    Hello friends, I would like to strongly disagree with this as the statement is simply untrue. We all know guys who have left car windows or sun roofs open during rain and had their seats become shriveled due to the absorbed water. And while the coating on all leather is somewhat dirt resistant, it is not water proof. Any type of cleaner of conditioner you use will always affect the hide.



    It is a very simple matter to keep the surface colorant of the leather redyed if it wears, which it will. It is more important to use a product 3-4 times per year that will keep your hides nourished and luxuriously supple so the leather will last the life of the car without cracking and shriveling.



    To answer the original question, any of the commercial products that contain a wax are fine to make the surface shiney, but you need to think first of keeping the hides nourished, and the surface color intact. Carnuba is a plant based wax and is safe for leather, and bees wax has always been a natural way to make leather more moisture and dirt resistant.



    Regards,

    George

  4. #79

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    A certain member`s posts are giving me a serious headache in this thread.



    Answering questions with more questions, waxing poetic, and communicating your stance in near-iambic pentameter might work well while defending a doctoral dissertation... but this is a detailing forum.



    I`d really like to learn more from the experts on the subject of leather upkeep, however I don`t want to feel like I`m reading a 100 year-old philosophy textbook in the process.



    Less words, more context, please. :xyxthumbs

  5. #80
    SuperBee364's Avatar
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    I have a little bit of chocolate shake dried on the back seat leather (7 year old with a McDonald`s shake). Now after reading this thread I`m scared to use anything to remove it.
    Sage advice from Greg Nichols: "Hey, Supe? When you`re trying to get the air bubble out of your syringe of Opti-Coat, don`t point it at your face, mmmkay?"

  6. #81
    Forza Auto Salon David Fermani's Avatar
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    Welcome to Autopia George! - :welcome



    Quote Originally Posted by George LRP

    Hello friends, I would like to strongly disagree with this as the statement is simply untrue. We all know guys who have left car windows or sun roofs open during rain and had their seats become shriveled due to the absorbed water. And while the coating on all leather is somewhat dirt resistant, it is not water proof. Any type of cleaner of conditioner you use will always affect the hide.


    Are you saying that water is not good for leather?



    Will these cleaners and/or conditioners negatively affect the integrity of the surface?



    Quote Originally Posted by George LRP

    To answer the original question, any of the commercial products that contain a wax are fine to make the surface shiney, but you need to think first of keeping the hides nourished, and the surface color intact. Carnuba is a plant based wax and is safe for leather, and bees wax has always been a natural way to make leather more moisture and dirt resistant.




    Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?
    Metro Detroit`s leader in cleaning, preserving & perfecting fine automobiles!

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by judyb
    Cracks and wear areas should not be `conditioned` as this will only help to further release the bond between the pigment and the leather. Finished leather that is worn or has begun to crack needs restoration work not `conditioning`



    Needle holes and perforations will allow more moisture to reach the leather itself which will keep it soft, supple and in good condition without the use of oils, waxes or `fat liquors`


    --------------------------



    These pictures shows the contrary - fatliquor is used to soften and strengthen the leather otherwise within a year of normal used all work done on refinishing will go to waste as the old cracks soon appears.



    Refinishing returns the leather seat to normal use, not just for show.



    It must be softer with increase tensile strength after fatliquoring.



    #1 After hydrating with a pH 3.3 hydrator it is then conditioned with a pH 5.0 fatliquor to soften and strengthen this 19 yrs old leather seat when dry.









    #2 To achieve extra softness natural slow drying overnight is preferred.











    #3 Repair and Refinishing thereafter with a 3 year warranty


  8. #83

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    Are you saying that water is not good for leather?



    Will these cleaners and/or conditioners negatively affect the integrity of the surface?



    Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?

    __________________

    Yes, water is not good for leather, it causes it to shrivel and become dry once the water evaporates.



    The affect of the cleaner or conditioner on the integrity of the finish or the leather depends again the on the ph of the product as discussed. Also think about the chemistry of the product used on the finish. In another thread, on another forum someone told a guy to use hair spray to clean a stain on his leather. Of course the hair spray removed the surface color and the guy was upset.



    As a cheap cleaner, I would recommend Ivory Bar soap. Cut a chunk and disolve it in a small bowl of warm water for general all purpose cleaning. Any product that contains quality wax will be fine if you like a shiney look. I prefer a more natural matte finish on my autos.



    The most important aspect of maintaining leather is to remember that you are working with two stratas, the actual hide and the surface finish. It is vital to maintain the tensile strength and luxurious suppleness of the hide as this is the backbone of the "leather". The second strata is the finish. It must be kept intact to protect the hide. These two steps are what helps the leather last the life of the car.

    Regards,

    George

  9. #84

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    Originally Posted by judyb

    Cracks and wear areas should not be `conditioned` as this will only help to further release the bond between the pigment and the leather. Finished leather that is worn or has begun to crack needs restoration work not `conditioning`



    -----

    False. If you don`t condition the hides and restore the luxurious suppleness and strength of the fibers prior to the redye, the new finish/surface "restoration" will continue to crack and the seats will look worse than they did with all the layers of paint on them.



    Good quality leather should feel like leather, not painted vinyl, nor should it be heavily waxed, armoral all-ed or petroleum oiled. Remember it was once skin with a blood supply to nourish it. It is still made of the same protein molecules that will respond badly to harsh chemicals or happily to good nourishment.



    The reason we pay for leather in our cars and homes is because it feels tactilly luxurious, it adjusts to body temperatures and breathes. For it to last, you should keep it in it`s most natural state. Common sense should be to treat your leather as well a you would your own skin.

    Regards,

    George

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Fermani
    Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?


    Of course not, thats why should use some M105 and an Orange Pad followed by M205/white+blue pads to get rid of any swirling and surface blemishes so your leather seats can pass the Halogen test.



    Putting wax on a vinyl sealed leather is counter productive.



    What is confusing people is that advice applicable to dealing with unsealed leather is not applicable to modern automotive leather that has been sealed with vinyl.



    Unless you get it sopping wet or abuse it on purpose you should think of such items as being equivalent to soft vinyl interiors except a little more delicate.



    If someone really wanted to restore "fatliquor" to car leather, then they should go get some mink oil-type shoe polish and work that in. But then they shouldn`t complain when it just sits on the surface of the vinyl coating and ruins it as well.

  11. #86

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    well at least the discussion of leather cleaning has improved since i stopped posting. Judy and Roger produce good information from several view points. I tend to agree more with roger. As that is where my years of training and exp lead me. As judy mentioned the IICRC i would recomend people take the time and start there. You will get an excelent overview of what leather is, what it needs and where to start. No it may not be complete and train you for every situation, but it will let you know what situations are above your level of expertise.



    David, Thanks for the link. give me a call mate.
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  12. #87
    I see you..... wytstang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George LRP
    Are you saying that water is not good for leather?



    Will these cleaners and/or conditioners negatively affect the integrity of the surface?



    Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?

    __________________

    Yes, water is not good for leather, it causes it to shrivel and become dry once the water evaporates.



    The affect of the cleaner or conditioner on the integrity of the finish or the leather depends again the on the ph of the product as discussed. Also think about the chemistry of the product used on the finish. In another thread, on another forum someone told a guy to use hair spray to clean a stain on his leather. Of course the hair spray removed the surface color and the guy was upset.



    As a cheap cleaner, I would recommend Ivory Bar soap. Cut a chunk and disolve it in a small bowl of warm water for general all purpose cleaning. Any product that contains quality wax will be fine if you like a shiney look. I prefer a more natural matte finish on my autos.



    The most important aspect of maintaining leather is to remember that you are working with two stratas, the actual hide and the surface finish. It is vital to maintain the tensile strength and luxurious suppleness of the hide as this is the backbone of the "leather". The second strata is the finish. It must be kept intact to protect the hide. These two steps are what helps the leather last the life of the car.

    Regards,

    George
    So Leather Master and judyb(forget what leather company she works for) are wrong about using water for leather? or misinformed I should say.

    So how do oil based products get passed the polyurethane coating to nourish the leather? From my understanding oil are to thick to get passed the coating and thats why water based products are a better choice.

    Edit: Didn`t realize Leatherique was so close to me. You guys are only an hour and a half away. May swing by one day when I visit my bud who lives in Aiken.
    "Life is not measured by the breathes we take, but by the moments that take our breathes away" :punk:

  13. #88

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    See this video, you`ll see the why of "Fatliquor"



    HowStuffWorks Videos "Dirty Jobs: Fat-liquor"

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by judyb



    Then we return to the ‘feeding’ ‘conditioning’, ‘nourishing’ topic.

    It is incredibly difficult to remove the ‘natural’ oils (fat liquors) from leather especially using detergent cleaners so replacing them is totally unnecessary and possibly detrimental on both finished and unfinished leathers. Modern C/T (Chrome Tanned) upholstery leather is a very sophisticated product and has been for decades. The notion that it is something straight from nature (like skin) that has to be fed and nourished is totally incorrect (unless you are dealing with conservation and restoration in the museum and antique sense). The oils and fats in C/T leather are introduced after the C/T processes have reduced the skin to pure collagen fibre (there maybe a tiny amount of fat left but it is of no significance). The fat liquoring process carefully introduces fats/oils of a specific type back into the leather to coat the fibres, These are balanced to produce the desired end product and are very stable and very difficult to remove. Trying to add more fat/oil etc is totally unnecessary and is of no benefit. On an absorbent leather, products used for ‘conditioning’ and ‘feeding’ will soak into the leather upsetting the balance and over time change it to the detriment of the leather. If the leather is non absorbent (caoted or finished as in auto leather) then these products have no where to go so will sit on the surface, getting slightly sticky and attracting more dirt. If they do manage to ‘get in through the cracks’ the results will be the same as absorbent leathers with the added problem of adversely affecting the bond between surface coatings and the leather. I thought the object was to clean it!!!!! .




    ---------------





    Fatliquor…In practice this is what happens.



    Without fatliquoring the repairs is stiff and cracks too soon while the repair color works still looks new.



    Just like the video say "like the car engine oil" it too will diminish.



    The sign of diminishing fatliquor by sight are creases, wrinkles & micro cracks.



    By hand or feel - stiffness, and will crack when flex in extreme cases.



    #1: Stiff and crack repairs to the left bolsters







    #2: Dried, stiff and crack leather soaking up the fatliquor.


  15. #90
    SuperBee364's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh
    See this video, you`ll see the why of "Fatliquor"



    HowStuffWorks Videos "Dirty Jobs: Fat-liquor"


    But is fatliquor able to penetrate the coating on my car seat leather? It seems like it would have to penetrate the coating in order to work, otherwise it would be like putting lotion on your hands while wearing gloves.



    The video shows the fat liquoring process is done before any coatings are applied.



    I`m just not seeing the benefit of applying fatliquor to coated leather.
    Sage advice from Greg Nichols: "Hey, Supe? When you`re trying to get the air bubble out of your syringe of Opti-Coat, don`t point it at your face, mmmkay?"

 

 
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